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Naučni Slovianski [čćч]
Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,752 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Are you sure about that? I mean, if that's the case, then it should also work the same way in the case of syllabic L, right? Or are you saying that all Czecho-Slovak and South Slavic had syllabic L at some point?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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even Polish had a syllabic L at some point, *slьza > *slza > ɫzа
otherwise it would develop according to Havlik's law: *slьza > *sleza > *sloza or something

but reflexes of liquids + yers are very complex, especially in East Slavic
in other languages they merged together so *slьza gave the same reflex as *sъlza/*sьlza would have - solza/suza/сълза/slza

that doesn't mean that those languages didn't have syllabic L in the past if the reflexes are different
especially in words like мысль - Russian has a syllabic l' there
Edited by iopq, Jun 5 2012, 01:28 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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what's havlik's law ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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steeven
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bandziol20
Jun 5 2012, 06:57 AM
what's havlik's law ?
Havlik's Law
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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bandziol20
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Oh, I know that from Polish, but I didn't realize that is Havlik's Law. OK.

Quote:
 
Counting from the last yer in a word, the final yer is weak, the previous yer is strong, the previous yer is weak,

It is true, but it is explained in a bit clumsy way, but anyway...
Quote:
 
even Polish had a syllabic L at some point, *slьza > *slza > ɫzа
otherwise it would develop according to Havlik's law: *slьza > *sleza > *sloza or something

In Polish it developed exactly due this Havlik's law, because ь is actually the last (and the only ;) ) yer ( this ending -a is a full vowel, not yer)
It actually goes like this : slьza > złza > (metathese) łzza > łza

Edited by bandziol20, Jun 6 2012, 12:55 PM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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yeah, you're right, I got confused because liquid + yer combinations are tough to predict and in East Slavic are always strong

that just means the yer wasn't strong in Polish
Edited by iopq, Jun 6 2012, 07:27 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Indeed, in Polish liquid + yer combinations behave normally, i.e. yers a treated according to Havlik's law.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Gabriel Svoboda

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Dobra rĺbota, Gabriel. Imam nadějų, že bṙzo napišeš něčo na forum o NMS na osnově vlĺstnogo izkušeňja. Mně treba skazati, že něčo imam svoje sųmněňja odnośno končin -ňgo, -í i t.d., ibo rĺzumlivosti ne pomagajųt i s takojų kolikosťjų diakritičnyh znakov izględa, kak by cělo stado muh nasralo. ;)


Ja jesňm zadovoľený s Naučnym Slovianskim takim, kaki je. Diakritika ne izględa zlo dľa mene, českí ne ima jčj mčněj. ;) Možlivo -ňgo, -í i t.d. rĺzumlivosti ne pomagajųt, ale oni sųt lčgko konvertujemé na rĺzumlivějšé nacionalné formy - i to je princip Naučnňgo Slovianskňgo. Kto ne ľubi nekotoré diakritičné bukvy, može ih zaměnitě nediakritičnymi - to je Slovianski Plus.

Na žalosť uže ne ima strĺnici s pňlnňjų gramatikňjų Naučnňgo Slovianskňgo. Ima slovnika, no gramatičné zakončeňja (na priměr že -oju je -ňjų) je treba čŕpatě iz pamęti. I než ta strĺnica tam izčeznųla, divné veći objavjali sę tam - na priměr -óm v`město -ňm.
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Jun 6 2012, 12:33 PM
Indeed, in Polish liquid + yer combinations behave normally, i.e. yers a treated according to Havlik's law.
sure:
*vьlkъ - wilk
*vъlna - wełna
*sъlnьce - sɫоńсе
*gъrdlo - gardɫo

Polish sure is easy in this regard
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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Quote:
 
Možlivo -ňgo, -í i t.d. rĺzumlivosti ne pomagajųt,

Ehm... I don't what you're talking about. For me it's too many diactrics, but it's readable anyway.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Jun 12 2012, 11:20 AM
IJzeren Jan
Jun 6 2012, 12:33 PM
Indeed, in Polish liquid + yer combinations behave normally, i.e. yers a treated according to Havlik's law.
sure:
*vьlkъ - wilk
*vъlna - wełna
*sъlnьce - sɫоńсе
*gъrdlo - gardɫo

Polish sure is easy in this regard
These are yer + liquid combinations, not liquid + yer combinations. Syllabic liquids is an entirely different can of worms.

Examples of the former are plъtь and brъvь.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Hvala za komentaři, Gabriel. Pozdněj odpišų, ibo sejčas pora spati. Gramatikų v NMS imam pravdopodobno ješče na komputerě, tak že akoli hočeš, bųdų mogl jų aplodovatě.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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tellur
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IJzeren Jan
Jun 13 2012, 12:07 AM
Hvala za komentaři, Gabriel. Pozdněj odpišų, ibo sejčas pora spati. Gramatikų v NMS imam pravdopodobno ješče na komputerě, tak že akoli hočeš, bųdų mogl jų aplodovatě.
I ja byh ju takože ocěnil, jerbo pišų pomočij Slovianski Plus i v něktoryh pozicijah ne jesm si isty, kdě pisati ę i ų.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Okay, perhaps it's time for a small reevaluation of Naučny Medžuslovjanski Pravopis. Here are some thoughts...

Consonants

Ň Ľ Ř Ť Ď Ś Ź - soft consonants, absolutely needed (Ń Ĺ Ŕ might even have been better, but sadly, Unicode doesn't provide T-acute or D-acute)
Ć (svěća, povraćati) - okay, taken from BCSM
Đ (međa, ćuđi) - idem
Ķ (ķvět - not the worst solution, I guess
Ģ (ģvězda) - idem

Jať and PSl. nasal vowels

Ě (město, htěti) - best solution, obviously useful
Ę (pęť, počęti) - very useful, no real alternative
Ų (zvųk, bųdų) - logical solution for ex-nasal ǫ, which has become u in most languages

Strong jers etc.

Č (pčs, otčc) - logical choice, no problem
Ň (bňčka, pěsňk) - logical choice, no problem
Ů (aůto) - not the most needed, probably, but rare anyway

Liquid metathesis

Ĺ (grĺd, glĺva) - perfectly clear and sensible
Ė (brėg, mlėko) - not really needed for understandability, but should be there for completeness

Syllabic liquids

(tṙg, gṙdy) - a bit inconvenient, because most fonts don't display this character
Ŕ (smŕť, pŕvy) - logical solution for soft syllabic R

IMO it is a mistake that NMS doesn't have a character for syllabic L. I have explicitly renamed "Naučny Slovianski" to "Naučny Medžuslovjanski" to make it suitable not only as an extension of Slovianski, but also of other Interslavic projects, some of which (including NS) treat syllabic L and R equally.
Possible candidates are:
Ŀŀ (pŀny) for hard syllabic L (counterpart of Ṙ)
Ĺĺ (vĺk) for soft syllabic L (from Slovak)

The advantage of Ṙ and Ŀ is that other PSl. vowel + liquid combinations are indicated in a similar way (ė, ĺ). However, the disadvantage is that Ṙ is not available in most fonts. Therefore I have also considered another solution:
Ŗŗ and Ļļ for hard syllabic R and L (both taken from the Latvian alphabet) (tŗg, pļny)

Endings

All the above are characters that convey etymological information. However, there are also characters that are morphological in nature rather than etymological. Thus we have: Ý Í (m.sg.), Á (f.sg.), Ó (n.sg.), É (pl.) for adjectives, and Ě for infinitives.

To be very honest, I am not so sure about these anymore, and at present I tend to avoid them. It all started with ý, which was meant to serve as a bridge between -y and -ij, but that is not needed anymore, because NS has also switched to -y. Right now, these characters don't serve understandability at all, they merely make the whole thing look blurry. The only possible advantage is that they serve as adjective markers, but let's face it, if a person doesn't know that dobry is an adjective, he won't be able to understand Interslavic anyway.
For the rest, these characters make sense only if you want to transpose a text into something very close to a national language. It did some experimenting with that back in 2010, but frankly speaking, this was more like some kind of spielerei and I don't think it's really going to work.
Of course, ý á etc. could serve as length markers, but no Interslavic project has ever seriously made any length distinctions, and I don't think we should go that way either.
Considering that the additional value of these characters is low, and that OTOH they make a text look like Vietnames, I think NMS could get rid of these easily.

Gabriel asked about the endings -ňgo, -ňm etc. Thing is, ň is not really suitable for these, because these endings do not derive from strong jer at all. The situation is similar in so far that West Slavic has e and East Slavic has o in these positions, but in reality this is a matter of different approaches to contraction. Therefore dobrňgo cannot be correct. If anything, I'd use a separate character here, like ś. But then, I really doubt if there is any use in this, and dobrśgo doesn't look that cool either.

Additions

Except for syllabic L, there are a few more additions I can think of. What NMS does not have yet but IMO really should have, is a character that denotes that disappearing t and d in words like mo(d)liti and me(t)lo. But finding something suitable isn't easy, the best thing I can come up with are and from Latin Extended Additional. Any suggestions?

In the past, Vojta has suggested one addition, namely ı (Turkish dotless i) for iotization - because of its similarity in shape to the left member of Cyrillic ѥ, ю, ѭ etc. I'm not very sure about that myself, because that role can very well be played by j as well. But I'd like to hear what others think.


Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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tellur
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Quote:
 
Ķ (ķvět - not the worst solution, I guess
Ģ (ģvězda) - idem

Special character just to indicate second palatalization of velars with intermediate v? I see no sense in this character.
Quote:
 
Ů (aůto) - not the most needed, probably, but rare anyway

not needed imo

What the hell is soft and hard syllabic r (and l)? Why do you differ this softness of a liquid?
In my opinion, noone should really attempt at marking the length in any intermediate Slavic language. It really depends on a nationality of a speaker, i.e. his language.
But it would be interesting to see some comparsion! :)

In my opinion, that ň in dobrňgo isn't needed. If the speaker from West (I don't know how it's on east) won't understand, that o is just a variant of his e in dobego, he won't surely understand much Interslavic anyways. I'd totally relinquish all the characters such as ň, á, ý, í, é and many others which appear only in endings.

I really strongly support this disappearing t and d in modliti, tlěti and so on!!! Such a great idea!
This would leave us with 10+15 characters:
ž,š,č,ř,ľ,ď,ť,ň,ś,ź
ć
đ

ě
ę
ų

č
ň

ĺ
ė

ṙ/ŕ
ŀ/ĺ


My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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