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Naučni Slovianski [čćч]
Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,753 Views)
iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Nov 30 2011, 11:56 AM
Why?
half the languages (South Slavic, Ukrainian, Czech) automatically assume e is hard and only soften yat or en
this is probably meh, both are understandable

in terms of i/y the most understandable to south slavic speakers is lack of y and i everywhere with no softening before it
so bik is understandable as byk as long as you don't say [b'ik] which is "side" in Ukrainian
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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South Slavs hardly can distinguish /b/ from /b'/
and afaik there are Ukrainian dialects that do not soften before o>i
Edited by Moraczewski, Nov 30 2011, 02:50 PM.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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iopq
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Moraczewski
Nov 30 2011, 02:49 PM
South Slavs hardly can distinguish /b/ from /b'/
and afaik there are Ukrainian dialects that do not soften before o>i
I was really talking about Ukrainian in that example
also, non-softening i is the pronunciation of y in Czech/Slovak anyway
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Xfing
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Myself, when I learn Slovianski, I'ma pronounce it according to the rules of NMS given at the site, so using those "intermediary" vowels anyway. Maybe it's pedantism or perfectionism, I just can't bring myself to ignore a codified standard when one exists :P
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tellur
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So, I wanted to know how to pronounce ę and ų, since I am using them everyday when communicating with other Slavs in MS.
Pronouncing ę as "[ʲa] ~ [ʲɛ] ~ [ʲɛ̃] ~ [ʲɔ̃] ~ [ɛ] → [ʲć]" is good, very good
but I doubt pronounciation of ų as "[a] ~ [ɛ̃] ~ [ɔ̃] ~ [ɔ] ~ [ɔw̃] ~ [ow] ~ "u" → [ow]" will be actually understood.
Sure, Czech (and I believe other languages) reflex ų (or ǫ if you wish) in words like koupat (se), kroužit (but kruh!), ženou se or soud (dialects spoken in Moravia just got u everywhere..kúpať sa, krúžit/kruh, ženú sa, súd)...But in other positions it's just treated as u as in any Slavic languages (vidím ženu, kruh...). I'm almost sure that ų is treated and pronounced as "u" in other Slavic languages (well, Polish and Slovene are two exceptions AFAIK).
Because I really think words/sentences like [vidžow ľepow ženow] would be IMO totally incomprehensible, I propose using [ʊ] instead of [ow]. Phonetically, it's very close to ų treatment in 99 % of the Slavic languages but still the difference between those two can be heard AND at the same time, ʊ is not a phoneme in Slavic!
What do you think?
Edited by tellur, Mar 18 2012, 09:23 AM.
My Interslavic shortly - no i/y disinction and o/e rule enforced (byti>biti x biti>biti, svežego x dobrogo), soft consonants ń, ĺ, ď, ť, ŕ, ě/e merged, ę->ja, no syllabic r/l (torg, deržava, volk, dolgi), tl/dl clusters preserved (midlo, metla), CroC, CloC, CreC, CleC (grod, glova, breg, mleko), 1st sg. ending -u, 3rd pl. ending ut/jat (delaju, čuju, molvju x delajut, čujut, molvjat). Basically, a heavy Western flavour with some Eastern elements.
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Gabriel Svoboda

Indeed. I didn't even know the pronunciation [ow] had ever been proposed. Only long ų becomes ou in Czech, short ų doesn't, and as you say, due to dialects it's easy for Czechs to understand u instead of ou, but ou instead of u would be a nonsense.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Ų is a difficult case. Most languages have simply u here, and Czech ou is a completely different thing. However, there are a few exceptions:

Polish ą is most often pronounced like [oũ] or something, whereas depending on the following consonant the nasal vowel becomes a nasal consonant: kąt [kont], bąk [bonk], ząb [zomp]. Before ł it usually vanishes, thus zajął [zajoł] (less educated people often write it that way). In any case, there's always [o] in the pronunciation of ą.

Slovene always has o for ų.

AFAIK Macedonian usually has a and Bulgarian has ъ in these cases.

So I really don't know what the best pronunciation of ų would be. But I'm pretty sure f.ex. a Pole wouldn't immediately link kut to his own kąt at first hearing.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
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but really there shouldn't be a different pronunciation for nauczni anyway
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Well, why not, actually? Since grammar and vocabulary are based on majority solutions, why shouldn't the same go for pronunciation as well? A more simplified orthography merges different phonemes from different languages into one character, Naučny keeps them separate. Therefore Naučny allows for making more distinctions by using the very same majority principle.

F.ex. the majority pronunciation of ě is clearly [ʲɛ], but in the case of e it's [ɛ]. Likewise, due to its various reflexes in the various languages, the best pronunciation ň would be [ə] and not [ɔ]. It's not like people MUST pronounce them that way, but if you're able to do it, then why not?

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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well, the vast majority is [у], it's East Slavic, Czecho-Slovak, BCS for 3.5 votes
Edited by iopq, Jun 3 2012, 08:46 AM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I take it you mean [ u ] ? Of course, nobody denies that that is the majority solution.

Yes, but in some languages ų has multiple reflexes. This is the case in Polish (ą, ę), Czech (u, ou), Slovak (u, ú) and AFAIK in Bulgarian as well.

Today it actually occurred to me that the most ideal pronunciation of a phoneme can actually be calculated. Taking ĺ as an example, ~3 votes have o and ~3 votes have a. We have established that a is the winner, but it might also be argued that the best solution is not the winner by votes, but rather some kind of average instead, in this case [ɒ]. Obviously, [ɒ] is not a common sound in Slavic, but since it is equally close to ɑ as to ɔ, it is easily recognisable for both groups.

Place of articulation of a vowel is basically a matter of two coordinates. If you combine the coordinates of the various reflexes of a phoneme in all Slavic languages with the voting system, the pronunciation of ų will undoubtedly close to [ u ], but a bit closer to [ʊ] or [o].

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
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I disagree with this, this leads you down the path of "the most ideal form of a word" where zsrakula is the closest in phonemic inventory to both akula and zsralok
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
No, zxrakula is mixing things that are completely unrelated to each other. What we're talking about here is taking the average solution between several reflexes of the very same thing. That's something we do here all the time, so from that point of view it's nothing new.

Mind, it's not a serious proposal, just a random thought. Slovianski does not have any "official" pronunciation, fortunately. I find the idea interesting in so far that it presents an alternative model to the various nationally-coloured pronunciation models, something that might at least be worth experimenting with.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
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but here's the thing:

brada has *borda > *bRoda (syllabic R) > *brōda > brada
boroda has *borda > *borьda > boroda
broda has *borda > *broda (syllabic R doesn't exist in Lechitic) > broda (no lengthening because of the absence of syllabic R)

so we're dealing with separate phonetic processes and separate phonemes that arose based on different circumstances
for example, a language with a syllabic r can have a reflex *TraT but a language lacking a syllabic r can only have *TroT or *Tor(o)T

you can't average that and say Slovianski has 50% of a syllabic r so it's a sound in between because the o had been lengthened half way to a kind-of-long-o instead of ō
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Are you sure about that? I mean, if that's the case, then it should also work the same way in the case of syllabic L, right? Or are you saying that all Czecho-Slovak and South Slavic had syllabic L at some point?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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