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Naučni Slovianski [čćч]
Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,754 Views)
Gabriel Svoboda

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But o is not majority solution, it is about 50/50.


3/3 votes, with an overhelming majority of population for o.

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It's a compromise solution, not a majority solution. The latter is especially doubtful if you consider that Russian has lots or TraT/TlaT sequences as well due to Church Slavonic, and that Belarusian -ara-/-ala- is not necessarily a vote for TroT/TloT either.


I remember we concluded in 2006 that Russian and Belarusian basically have -oro-/-olo-, and neither 1) later o-->a change in certain positions, nor 2) Church Slavonic loans, can change it. I have nothing against re-considering the weight of these two counter-arguments, but let's do it consistently. If we conclude now that -ra-/-la- is the majority solution, let's have it not only in Naučni Slovianski orthography, but also in ordinary Slovianski. Slovianski solutions should not deviate from majority solutions, at least if both solutions are equally difficult (which is the case, grad is neither more nor less difficult than grod).

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And is used in Slovak for [uo] that can create confusion.


That's right, then we must also eliminate , confusing for Kashubians and confusing for Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_with_grave).

Luckily, if we can't use , it doesn't mean we must use ; ŏ, ǒ, , ő, , ȯ, , ō, ọ, ɵ are all available.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Jul 15 2010, 12:03 PM
I remember we concluded in 2006 that Russian and Belarusian basically have -oro-/-olo-, and neither 1) later o-->a change in certain positions, nor 2) Church Slavonic loans, can change it. I have nothing against re-considering the weight of these two counter-arguments, but let's do it consistently. If we conclude now that -ra-/-la- is the majority solution, let's have it not only in Naučni Slovianski orthography, but also in ordinary Slovianski.

No no, that's certainly no what I am proposing. As far as I am concerned, -ro- is still the best compromise between -oro-, -ro- and -ra-.

But, in all honesty, Russian ra- comes not only from Church Slavonic. There are also the orT sequences, which AFAIK always become ra-.

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Slovianski solutions should not deviate from majority solutions, at least if both solutions are equally difficult (which is the case, grad is neither more nor less difficult than grod).

True that. Grod/grad is a good example, but an even better case in point is pjat'/pet'. East Slavic always has ja, South Slavic always has e, Polish always has ję or ją, Czech and Slovak make a mess of it. There's no real compromise available here, so whatever choice we make, it's always better for some and worse for others.

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And ô is used in Slovak for [uo] that can create confusion.

That's right, then we must also eliminate ë, ò confusing for Kashubians and è confusing for Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ye_with_grave).

Hang on, that would be an exaggeration. If we'd eliminate any character that might be misunderstood by somebody, then there's very little we can use.

Personally, I don't particularly like è/ò myself, but mostly because of other languages. To me, è would rather sound like [ɛ:]. But I agree that Andrej has a valid point, so I've already modified the Naučni Slovianski pages.

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Luckily, if we can't use ô, it doesn't mean we must use å; ŏ, ǒ, ö, ő, õ, ȯ, ø, ō, ọ, ɵ are all available.

Well, I'd strongly suggest not to use characters that don't belong to one of the standard charcter sets, because the average font will probably not recognise them or mess them up.
If anything, I'd use ö and ë in cases like pölny, mërtvy etc., because the ideal pronounciation would IMO be jer-like.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Gabriel Svoboda

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Well, I'd strongly suggest not to use characters that don't belong to one of the standard charcter sets, because the average font will probably not recognise them or mess them up.


OK, let's use grőd, ő (o with Hungarian umlaut) is a part of ISO-8859-2.
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Jan van Steenbergen
I would object against that solution, because it's counterintuitive. Basically, I think any diacritic in Naučni Slovianski should give a hint about the correct pronunciation even to a person who is not a specialist. The reason why I originally suggested ŏ in words like pŏlný is that the brevis is quite universally understood as a shortener (and it is therefore not strange that jers are often represented as ŭ and ĭ).

Pölný and mërtvý would be imaginable, because both could reasonably be expected to be pronounced as a schwa. But Andrej gave a good reason for using pòlný/mèrtvý. In the case of grod/grad we need something that makes it reasonably clear that it's something between o and a, and if no other solution than å can express that, then we might as well use it.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Xfing
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Hey there, everyone! First of all I'd like to congratulate you on the fantastic and swift work so far - Slovianski is really starting to look like the middle ground between all Slavonic languages with each passing day. Myself, I'm a Polish dude who loves languages and Slovianski is just the thing for me.

So my question about Naučni Slovianski is the following: are the letters u and e with ogoneks supposed to be pronounced nasally like in Polish, or according to the vowel chart back on the website (which gives "u" for "ų" and "" for "ę")?
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iopq
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Xfing
Nov 29 2011, 02:14 PM
Hey there, everyone! First of all I'd like to congratulate you on the fantastic and swift work so far - Slovianski is really starting to look like the middle ground between all Slavonic languages with each passing day. Myself, I'm a Polish dude who loves languages and Slovianski is just the thing for me.

So my question about Naučni Slovianski is the following: are the letters u and e with ogoneks supposed to be pronounced nasally like in Polish, or according to the vowel chart back on the website (which gives "u" for "ų" and "" for "ę")?
Welcome!

nauczny slovjanski is really meant to be a way to record the etymology of the word
I'd say just convert to regular and read it as usual, whatever usual would mean to you
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Xfing
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Ah, fine. I was a bit confused about the graphemes like "" etc, because they WERE supposed to alter the pronunciation... Anyway, nauczny medźuslovjanski sounds like a great idea, especially for me (who likes having things complicated, but kept logical). All it takes is some training and you can understand the etymology and morphology just by knowing the diacritics, I like that a lot :)
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Jan van Steenbergen
Welcome, Xfing!

The thing about NMS is quite simply that the pronunciation of its elements is variable. Igor's right, it's all about etymology, and with NMS I hope to offer a way to make the whole thing more informative, but also more practical.

Suppose, you're talking to a Serb. Of course you want to make yourself as easily understandable as you can, without actually knowing Serbian. Therefore your Interslavic should be as close to Serbian as possible. You can achieve that, for example, by: pronouncing and as a, ě and ę as non-palatalising e, ř as r, etc.

However, if you're talking to a Ukrainian, you may want to pronounce and as o, ę as ja, ě as i, ć as č.

And if you're talking to a Pole, pronounce as o, e and ě as je, as non-palatalising e, ć as c, and of course ę as jeũ and ų as .

The suggested pronunciation is, well, the pronunciation that holds the middle between different languages. So is somewhere between o and a, ę somewhere between e, je, ja (therefore j). That does not mean they have to be pronounced like that, it just means that this is probably the best solution when you're addressing a pan-Slavic audience.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Xfing
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Oh? So the letter "e" with no diacritics is iotated as well? Why is that? I thought "e" is always "e", and in the Latin script to write "je" we use "je" :P
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Jan van Steenbergen
E is never iotated. Most Slavic languages pronounce it hard, but Polish and Russian pronounce it as a palatalising e. The fact that I use je etc. in my examples was just a manner of speech, what I mean is of course 'e.
Edited by IJzeren Jan, Nov 29 2011, 08:03 PM.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Xfing
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Hmmmm.... Being a Pole myself, I'm pretty certain that Polish "e" is always hard, the eqivalent to the russian "э". Perhaps my linguistic knowledge is insufficient, but I was always under the impression that it's the "i" in Polish that softens consonants before it, "e" doesn't interact with its neighboring phonemes in any way. "ciepło", but "cela", etc.
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yes, but Polish hard E never matches Proto-Slavic E. As far as I can tell, it occurs only in three cases:
- it's the Polish equivalent of strong hard jer
- it happens in contractions: dobro-je / dobry-je > dobre
- it happens in international vocabulary and other borrowed vocabulary (mostly German and Czech).
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Xfing
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Alright, fine. However, a iotated/palatalizing pronounciation should not be encouraged, simply because it never takes place :P
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iopq
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Xfing
Nov 29 2011, 08:41 PM
Alright, fine. However, a iotated/palatalizing pronounciation should not be encouraged, simply because it never takes place :P
well, as a standard we should be following Macedonian/Bulgarian/Ukrainian pronunciation with hard i/e BUT soft i/e should be allowed as they are allowed in dialects in those languages
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Jan van Steenbergen
Why?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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