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| Naučni Slovianski [čćч] | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,756 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Jul 5 2010, 11:41 AM Post #16 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yes, but in French "serieux" it's syllabic. Unlike in "lotion". |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 5 2010, 11:49 AM Post #17 |
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is it? http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sérieux |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 6 2010, 11:07 AM Post #18 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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The "i" is quite audibly syllabic in the sound file. Bulgarian has сериозен, Serbo-Croat has seriozan, Slovak has seriózny. It looks like the "j" is a typical East Slavic phenomenon. Besides, I'm not convinced by your argument that -cj- is awkward. For a Russian, it may be. But remember that for a Pole -cj- isn't awkward at all, while -rj- is. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jul 7 2010, 01:35 PM Post #19 |
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Well, when Slovianski had the r'o/rjo distinction, we could have chosen the most common forms of foreign words as per voting, but obviously we are not that free now. So nacjonalizm, losjon, serjozni, karjera, specjalni, aljans are not an option, unless we want to get ridiculous pronunciations. If we eliminate these, one of the two remaining possibilities is nacionalizm, losion, seriozni, kariera, specialni, alians - these forms are common throughout west and south Slavic. The other possibility is nacijonalizm, losijon, serijozni, karijera, specijalni, alijans, but only Serbo-Croatian has some of these forms.
Celi/entire works in singular only for countable nouns (celi dom, cela doska, cele avto). Uncountable nouns get veś/all (veś gnoj, vsa žalost', vse černilo). On žive (žije?) v Rosie cele svoje žitje. He lives in Russia during his entire life. (žitje here is countable, in the meaning "lifespan") Jaderna bomba izničila bi vse žitje na Zemle (Zeme?). Nuclear bomb would destroy all life on the Earth. (žitje here is uncountable, in the meaning "living organisms") |
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| iopq | Jul 7 2010, 02:32 PM Post #20 |
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I asked someone learning French and they said the word has two syllables The glides [j], [w], and [ɥ] appear in syllable onsets, immediately followed by a full vowel. In many cases they alternate systematically with their vowel counterparts , , and [y], for example in the following pairs of verb forms: nie [ni]; nier [nje] ('deny') loue [lu]; louer [lwe] ('rent') tue [ty]; tuer [tɥe] ('kill') |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Jul 7 2010, 05:39 PM Post #21 |
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Who said that seriozni even come from french serieux and not from italian serioso? I think we should keep it I-O and pronounce also i and o. If you'd say serjozni many slavs get an other association like me right now. Thats why I always have to laugh when i hear the name Serjoža
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| steeven | Jul 8 2010, 03:44 AM Post #22 |
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Why not use a nice SLAVIC word for serieux / serioso and forget these romantic carpetbaggers! :lol: |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 8 2010, 08:54 AM Post #23 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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That's a good point. Whatever be the case, "lośon" or "seŕozni" looks foolish. The best of the solutions you propose is obviously "losion", "kariera", "specialni" etc., because they are supported by most languages. IMO it also looks better than -ijo-, -ija- etc. The need for inserting a -j- did emerge when we switched back to i as a palataliser for a while (because in such case "losion" = "lośon"), but not anymore.
That's a different thing. The French usually speak fast, really fast. So fast, that non-finally syllables are often not treated with the care they deserve. As a result, neighbouring vowels tend to be pronounced like glide + vowel no matter what the first vowel is like, and even isolated vowel are often hardly pronounced if at all. The fact that spoken French is essentially a polysynthetic languages also makes things worse. However, that doesn't mean those syllables don't exist, it's just that they are often swallowed or minimised. "Je ne vais pas" is often pronounced like [ʒvɛ'pa], but that does not make it an expression of two syllables. If French is pronounced slowly (or sung), you can hear the difference. Believe me, I speak French and I have lived in a French-speaking country. Besides, there is no proof that French was actually pronounced that way at the time when sérieux was borrowed into Slavic (if it comes from French at all). No, this is just a way how East Slavic borrows things from the West. Even in slow French, "nation" and "lotion" have only two syllables. Yet, that doesn't stop Russian from borrowing "national" as "национальный".
That's not really an option, since this is word that exists in most Slavic languages and would be understandable even to the rest.
Interesting, I hadn't thought of that. So this the system, right: veś "all + sg.": an uncountable thing in its entirety ("Vsja moja ljubov dlja tebe umerla") celi "whole": one entire item of a countable thing ("On vipil celu butylku mleka") vseki/každi "each, every": all items of a countable thing vse "all + pl": idem [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 8 2010, 09:59 AM Post #24 |
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Jan: that doesn't change the fact that I can clearly hear two syllables in the sound file I posted also nacional'ni is of course borrowed from Latin, not French otherwise it would be something like nasjonal'ni which is precisely my point: we have to classify borrowings by the source language the same with ortografija vs. orfografija, we have to choose how to loan Greek words |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Jul 8 2010, 12:27 PM Post #25 |
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Wait until this evening, I will ask my stepfather, and he is a native French speaker. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Jul 9 2010, 06:16 AM Post #26 |
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sérieux two syllables? Main Non, mesieurs! It has three syllables: Sé - ri- eux
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 13 2010, 11:53 AM Post #27 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Differences between Naučni Slovianski and Slovianski Plus When I started working on NS, the idea was just to add a few diacritical marks to make things more clear. So I started marking ę, ě and making distinguishing between i and y. The next step was marking anything where Slovianski follows a path of regular derivation from Common Slavic. During the process, I also found out that these markers could easily be used to manipulate Slovianski for special purposes (e.g. raz- instead of roz- when dealing with South Slavs, or pjat' instead of pet' when dealing with East Slavs), and so the last step was adding a few additional markers for adjectives and infinitives. The result is 21 additional letters with diacritics (not counting š/ž/č): seven soft consonants, six grammar markers, and eight etymology markers. The soft consonants are: ť, ď, ś, ź, ń, ŕ, ľ. The grammar markers are: ý, í, á, é, ë for the nominative endings of adjectives, as well as ĭ for the infinitive. The etymology markers are the following: y for y ě for jať ų, ę for hard and soft nasal vowels ĺ, ę for TorT/TolT/TerT/TelT sequences ŏ for ъ in cases like pŏlný and dostatŏk (> gen. dostatka), as well as dobrŏgo (> West Slavic -ego) ė for ь (the soft equivalent of ŏ), as in mėrtvý and pės (> gen. psa). ć, dź for Proto-Slavic tj/dj sequences, as in svěća and medźunarodný. Several other markers would of course be imaginable, however, I don't think any of them could play a role of major importance. I'm open to suggestions, of course. In any case, this goes much further than only making a few additions to make Slovianski better understandable. The average text written in NS (in this form, at least) is pretty full of those diacritics, which doesn't really make it look nice, and not all of them really helpful either. Besides, the original idea was that Naučni Slovianski should be Slovianski with some additional diacritics to enhance understandability. And that's why I decided to take one step back and work a bit on something I provisorically called "Slovianski Plus". Slovianski Plus is basically something between Slovianski and Naučni Slovianski. I haven't written much about it on the NS page, and so let me tell you something about the differences, at least how I see them.
The funny thing is that ı/y can be implemented fairly easily, even within the limitations of Slovianski grammar. In fact, the only thing you need to know is that ı/y always becomes i after a soft vowel: dobrı, sveži. I'm wondering what to do after k/g: Russian, Belarusian and Polish have ky > ki, Ukrainian, Czech and Slovak don't. If you ask me, it's not really needed, and we might as well write: slovjanský. All this is just a proposal, of course. So my question is: what do you think of all this? Are these things needed or useful at all? And if so, is there any use for both Slovianski Plus and Naučni Slovianski? Or is all this one huge pile of crap that would best be discarded ASAP? [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Jul 13 2010, 03:28 PM Post #28 |
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For me Slovianski Plus is what I would like to use (if I make an effort to learn rules of jat' and hard nasal). The only thing that I could take from Nauczny Slovianski is, however, adjective markers, because they make things much easier for Russians particularly. "it has the advantage that it coincides more or less with the corresponding IPA character" It is not very big advantage, because an average user has no knowledge of IPA. I would suggest writing y. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Jul 13 2010, 10:54 PM Post #29 |
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Let me ask you something Jan! What is the purpose of Slovjanski Plus? I fear it's gonna mess the whole thing up. People are gonna mix what they like from Slovjanski and Slovjanski Plus and we wont have only one language now but the whole cram of dialects and subdialects. I feel that Slovjanski Plus is some kind of the language which Western and Eastern Slavs would have so gladly and the only reason Slovjanski exists are Southslavic languages. I agree with Nauczni Slovjanski. Its a good thing which keeps many useful information. And Slovjanski is good thing for all of us. Its our main goal. But what is Slovjanski Plus? Why? What's its goal? I thought you have already made such expiriences with "variations". First its one and then two and then eight and then every of us ten creators ( I cannot even say users because none of us uses Slovjanski yet) will pick up its own version, give it a new name, find some group of friends and try to make concurrence to the real Slovjanski. Think a little bit about that? I advocate a Sclavonicum litteratum and a Sclavonicum vulgare ![]() |
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| iopq | Jul 14 2010, 02:09 AM Post #30 |
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I think new versions are great, they let us see what works and what doesn't |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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2:14 PM Jul 11