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| Naučni Slovianski [čćч] | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM (4,749 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Jul 2 2010, 12:53 PM Post #1 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Ever since I wrote this, I have been thinking more and more about the true nature of Slovianski. As a result, I have cooked up something I have provisorically called "Naučni Slovianski", which is essentially Slovianski with several additional diacritics containing etymological information. It is not meant to substitute Slovianski in any way, I'd rather treat it as the "source code", and I'm wondering about ways to put it in use. Please take a look and tell me what you think: http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/nauczni_slovianski.html Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 2 2010, 05:33 PM Post #2 |
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í, á, é, è for the adjective endings -y(j) (m.sg.), -(aj)a (f.sg.), -(oj)e (n.sg.), -(yj)e (pl.) but the title of the page is NAUČNÝ I like y better I also like the Slovak soft l better than long l for the soft l. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 2 2010, 06:31 PM Post #3 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Ah, yes, you're right. I've been working on this thing for about three weeks, and in the beginning I used ı instead of y. Later I decided to add special diacritics for adjective endings, and the result was both in dobr and in treť. Basically, there's nothing wrong with that, because the difference is always dictated by the preceding consonant; however, it would mean that we'd end up with one vowel with two different pronunciations. At last, I decided to use y and after all, but I forgot to add it there. The mistake has been corrected.
Me too, as a matter of fact. As you might have noticed, Slovianski Plus (the draft, at least) still has ı, though. My idea was that Naučni Slovianski could be used as the source code for other languages as well (Novoslovienskij, Slovioski). That's one reason why I thought separate characters for adjective endings might come in helpful. Slovianski itself doesn't need those, so that's why I decided to develop Slovianski Plus as well - which is really just Slovianski with a few additional diacritics. As you may have noticed, Slovianski Plus (the draft, at least) still has ı. For the same reason, I have also considered using instead of (which would give zlto and mlko instead of zlto and mlėko).
Sure, but in that case, wouldn't it be better to use hačeks for all palatalised alveolars? I mean, the current proposal has ŤĎŃŔĹ, which contains two hačeks already (because Unicode doesn't have T and D acute, and I'd rather avoid using combining acutes). If we substitute all these acutes with hačeks, we'd get ŤĎŇŘĽ (in some fonts, the Ľ looks like L-haček already). That would make even more sense! The question is then, of course, what to do with Ś and Ź. If you ask me, now that we got rid of ę > ja, we have very few instances of them left. All I can think of right now is guś, karaś, loś, riś (ryś), Podlaśe and knęź. Do we need them as special phonemes for these rare instances? We might as well settle for gus, karaz, los, rys and knęz, and treat Podlasje as something similar to Skopje. That would save us these two phonemes and bring Naučni Slovianski a lot closer to Proto-Slavic, which merged SJ and already in an early stage. Besides, it would make it easier to switch to ŤĎŇŘĽ, because we don't have to face the problem that and are already taken. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 2 2010, 07:09 PM Post #4 |
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not sure, do we have ves', vsja, etc.? here are some words, tell me which ones we need in Slovianski: primes'/smes'/pomes' os' nadpis'/perepis'/rukopis' dnes' eres' karas' losos' Rus'/Belorus' dosje losjon kos'ba pros'ba tes'ma also z': svez' maz' skvoz' prorez'/rez'ba penez' vitez' jaz' sliz' |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| iopq | Jul 2 2010, 09:51 PM Post #5 |
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your converter has a bug in Ru and Ukr versions: "То даже може быть правда, али не забудьте, что цель той ортографии не е ни красивость ни выгодность, али %д всечим комплетность." |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| steeven | Jul 2 2010, 09:55 PM Post #6 |
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SUGGESTION: In an earlier post, JAN suggested that we all set our encoding for this website to: WESTERN (ISO-8859-1) rather than UNICODE. This means that when I write text here - whether in latinica, kirilica or either of these with diacritical marked letters itd - the text will appear uniformly for everyone whose ENCODING is likewise set for WESTERN ISO . (I set my ENCODING earlier on to this WESTERN ISO format. However, if I am to reac IGOR's text, I must reset it to UNICODE, which then leaves JAN's text with unreadable characters, etc. etc., itd. itd. Thoughts? Misli?
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 2 2010, 11:18 PM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Very strange! I tried it both in IE and in Firefox, and both show "перед". What system do you use? Anyway, I checked the source code and couldn't find anything. I've tried something but I'm not confident it will work. Does the problem still persist? [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 3 2010, 12:19 AM Post #8 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I've thought of that one too. Unless I am mistaken, it means "entire" in the singular and "all" in the plural. In the singular we already have celi for "whole, entire" and vseki or kadi for "each, every". I'm not sure if we really need veś in the singular at all. And even if we do, we might as well regularise it: vsi, vsa, vse (or alternatively: vsji, vsja, vsje). Mind, abolishing ś as a phoneme doesn't exclude the possibility of having sj as two separate phonemes.
Good question. Well... just to pick a few: os' - Polish has oś for "axis" and osa for "wasp". Serbo-Croat (according to my dictionary) has osa in both cases. Czech has osa for "axis" and vosa for "wasp". Slovene and Bulgarian have os for "axis" and osa for "wasp". It occurs to me that we might as well have os (f.) and osa for "wasp". nadpis'/perepis'/rukopis' - Hm, even in Polish these are hard. dnes' - We already have tutden'. But if anything, dnes could work, too. losos' - Czech, Slovak, Slovene and Serbo-Croat all seem to have losos here. Rus'/Belorus' - Tough one. But I think Rus/Belorus (f.) might work, too. dosje and losjon - Loans. Clearly a case of two phonemes.
Yeah, those are really rare. I have a huge Polish "słownik a tergo", which produces the following result for final -ź: haź, kniaź, jaź, maź, kamerpaź, paź, fontaź, gałąź/gałęź, kneź, witeź, rzeź, więź/podwieź/przewięź/powięź/uwięź, zamrź, huź, dyź, hyź The only words I could find in my dictionary (Oxford PL-EN, 1428 pp.) are kniaź, maź, paź, gałąź, rzeź, więź, hyź. Of these, paź is a borrowing ("page"), hyź (or hyś) is part of an idiom. "Kniaź" is obviously a borrowing as well, since Polish has the regular "ksiądz" as well. For the rest, I'm sure Slovianski doesn't need words that even a 100000+ words dictionary does not contain. Words we might need are: maź "gunk", kniaź "prince", gałąź "branch", rzeź "slaughter", więź "link, connection". My guess is that we could survive very will with maz/knez/galuz/rez/vez (provided that they are omni-Slavic, of course). Mind, Polish is in a similar position with labials. The genitives in "Jadę do Krakowa" vs. "Jadę do Wrocławia" or in "karpia" show that Polish has a logical p' and v' here. But, "Jem karpa" would be understood as well (reminds a bit of children's language), just like "jem łososa" would be understood. And AFAIK that's what all non-East Slavic and non-Polish languages do. Word on -śba, -źba, -śma, -śpa etc.... In Polish I found five of them with ź: rzeźba, więźba, groźba, woźba, przyźba. And there's a number of them with ś. Slovianski doesn't even write an apostrophe in these cases, and I'm quite sure Czech, Slovak and South Slavic have always -zba, -sma etc. So the question is: how much do we NEED ś and ź as separate phonemes? We might as well postulate that sь simply becomes s in Slovianski, and have -sj- in cases like dosje (similar to krupje). After all, the number of words that would be affected is extremely small. In addition to that, most words ending in ś or ź are feminine, which puts them into the i declension anyway. In the remaining cases, my feeling is that "risa" or "lososa" (supported by some 50% of the votes already) would be perfectly understandable for Poles and Russians anyway. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Jul 3 2010, 06:04 AM Post #9 |
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To me ves, vsa, vse - vsi looks ok, besides its also how it looks like in some living slavic languages. axis in BCS - osa, and wespe - osen, os, osa (if its big one we say os, osen and if its smaller we say osa :)) nadpis, prepis, rukopis sounds good, dnes too, losos is borrowing though, concerning losjon I would rader write "losion". raz, maz, knez, vitez etc. all sounds good and completely understandable and i think we can allow to ourself to relinguish the ś and ź. PS: I dont know why do you say "pered" and "pere-" and not "pred" and "pre-"? And a question out of theme: Could it be that vitez derives from "viking" like knez from "kuning"? Vitez sounds to me like a germanic borrowing for shure. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 3 2010, 12:55 PM Post #10 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Agreed.
Now that's funny. In any case, I think for these I don't really have any other option than osa for "wasp" and os (oś) for "axis".
Indeed, that's a good point. I believe we can use this as a general rule for this kind of borrowings: nationalizm, specialni, seriozni, kariera, losion... perhaps even koniak.
Only in the Russian and Ukrainian. The idea is that Naučni Slovianski can also be used to run a text through a script that does not only adjust the orthography, but also applies certain sound changes to that particular language. Every diacritic in Naučni Slovianski represents a certain entity that tends to behave differently but regularly in the Slavic languages. In this particular case we are dealing with a TerT sequence, which in East Slavic becomes TereT, and a special diacritic over the E makes it possible to recognise these things.
Of Germanic descent it is, for sure. Brckner (Słownik etymologiczny języka polskiego) attributes it to "an incorrect derivation from the Germans, or of the Normandic vikings, or of some Vithungi, a tribe of that name". Miklosch (Etymologische Wrterbuch der Slavischen Sprachen) also mentions the Vithungi as a possible source. Both make a connection to the Lithuanian "Vytis". [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 4 2010, 10:32 AM Post #11 |
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Administrator
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The reason I don't like ves is that it means "weight" where in Russian/Ukrainian that distinction is clear Vasmer gives Germ. víking- as the source of the Ru. vitjaz' and talks about dissimilation of *c and *dz in the same word as the source of the t I'm using Opera which is the most popular browser in Ukraine and Russia and the problem persists in Opera I don't agree with nationalizm, I'd write nacionalizm, losjon, specialni, serjozni, karjera, konjak |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 5 2010, 12:56 AM Post #12 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I have made a few changes. Could you try again please? (It might be necessary to clear the cache first with this kind of things)
Obviously! That was a typo on my part, or a thinko rather.
Why? I'm asking because it seems counterintuitive to me. In Dutch we have: - na-tio-na-lis-me (5 syllables) - lo-tion (2 syll.) - spe-ciaal (2 syll.) - se-ri-eus (3 syll.) - car-ri-e-re (4 syll.) - co-gnac (2 syll.) Of course I'm not proposing to use Dutch as a model, but it is shows how differently these things are treated by different languages. That's why I'd rather have one rule for them, either always J or always I. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 5 2010, 05:01 AM Post #13 |
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Administrator
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yeah, the transliteration works now one rule doesn't work because French borrowings have ONE syllable lo-SJON Latin borrowings have TWO syllables as in spe-CI-AL'-ni why? because cj is awkward Polish originally used cj in words like civilization -> civilizacja Russian borrowed those words as civilizacija to avoid having to write цья which is, like I said, awkward (and not possible to pronounce according to Russian phonetics) then most other languages, lacking these words, borrowed that form from Russian (like Bulgarian, I think) everything else is just j though so the rule is quite simple: i after c and at the end of the word (arija, Anglija, etc.) and j everywhere else |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jul 5 2010, 09:32 AM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Polish cywilizacja in older texts are written cywilizacya or cywilizacyja, which was later simplified. Nacionalizm and civilizacija make sense from the point of view of the source language, which is not French, but Latin. The same thing goes not only for -cj- sequences, but also for similar cases: Just like natione > nacija > nacionalni, one would also expect religione > religija > religijni/religiozni, seria > serija > serijni/seriozni, familia > familijni/familiarni etc. In other cases I basically agree with you, however, I do have a bit of a problem with: kaŕera, aĺans, lośon, seŕozn in NS. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jul 5 2010, 11:19 AM Post #15 |
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it was common at that time to pronounce latin -ti- as -cy- even though Classical Latin pronounced it as -tj- French actually pronounces these words as -sj- so it can't be the source language as you mentioned serjozni comes from Fr. seriouse "serjoz" if you don't like the lack of distinction between серйозни and серьозни well that's the choice of merging r' and rj |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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2:14 PM Jul 11