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JA, JAT to E; Nasal E Reflex to E
Topic Started: Jun 11 2010, 10:52 PM (2,575 Views)
iopq
Administrator
Vasmer's dictionary:
Quote:
 
GENERAL: мн. славя́не, укр. слав᾽яни́н (Шевченко), др.-русск. словѣне -- название вост.-слав. племени близ Новгорода (Пов. врем. лет, РП; см. Карский, РП 92), словяне, ст.-слав. словѣне, словѣньскъ -- в отношении к слав. племени близ Салоß ник (Жит. Конст.; см. Нидерле, Slov. Star. 2, 2, 473), болг. слове́нин, словен. slovẹ̑nski "словенский", чеш. slovanský "славянский", slované "славяне", слвц. slovák "словак", slovenka "словачка", Slovensko "Словакия", польск. sɫowianie мн. "славяне", кашуб. sɫoviński "прибалтийско-словинский" (в Поморье), полаб. slüövenskë -- о полаб. славянах.

ORIGIN: Праслав. *slověninъ, мн. *slověne...


Old Church Slavonic online:
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-MG-X.html
Quote:
 
словѣньскъіѩ
adjective; accusative plural feminine of <словѣньскъ> Slavonic, Slavic -- 9.230



as you can see, the Polish form słowiański is not from a nasal because it doesn't have a nasal which Polish preserves
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Indeed, although it happens sometimes that Polish loses the nasal too (and in rare cases it generates a nasal where there wasn't one). But AFAIK nasal e NEVER become ja in Polish, unless it's a loan.

So yes, the possibility of SlovJAnin being a case of analogy seems to make sense here.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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Best to view this message with WESTERN ISO Encoding:

So, how do you propose to spell the following:

rozsxirienie ....... > rozsxirj
enie? > rozsxirjenje?
viganiati ....... > viganjati?
izkliucxati ....... > izkljucxati?
izvolniati ....... > izvolnjati?
slavienie ....... > slavjenie? }
izmenienie ....... > izmenjenie? } ...............{ - enje?
sorovnienie ....... > sorovnjenie? }
veselianie ....... > veseljanie? }
rozmeniati ....... > rozmenjati?



-_-
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Exactly as you write them (except for the X and the ending -IE). There's no point in having both JE and IE, because nobody would know when to write what anymore. Since I can be a vowel only, the sequence IE will only occur when it's two syllables as an "dieta".
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Jun 26 2010, 10:11 PM
Exactly as you write them (except for the X and the ending -IE). There's no point in having both JE and IE, because nobody would know when to write what anymore. Since I can be a vowel only, the sequence IE will only occur when it's two syllables as an "dieta".

OK!
The "-nie" and other "-ie-" spellings should allay the concerns of our Polish and other speakers who do not use the "-j-".

(When I do not use a "hacek", I long ago chose to use the "-x-" form....)
Thank you, Jan!
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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steeven
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Jan.... I believe I misunderstood you.

Are you proposing the the ending "-nie" all be converted to "-nje" ?

My thought was to accommodate both the Southern and the Western Speakers by retaining the "-nie" suffix - as is written in Polish.

Please comment.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
yes, it is changed to -nje everywhere
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
steeven
Jun 29 2010, 06:18 AM
Are you proposing the the ending "-nie" all be converted to "-nje" ?

Well, that is the logical outcome of the poll we had, yes. It's already implemented on my site.

Quote:
 
My thought was to accommodate both the Southern and the Western Speakers by retaining the "-nie" suffix - as is written in Polish.

I understand what you're after, but believe me, an inconsistent spelling won't accommodate anybody. It's either delanie/liubiti/gliadeti* or delanje/ljubiti/gljadeti, but not a bit of this and a bit of that, otherwise you'd have too much to explain. You might as well say: instead of v we'll sometimes use w to accomodate the Polish speakers. Or even worse: we write all verbs in Cyrillic and all nouns in Latin.

* I know it's gledeti now, I was just giving an example, albeit a bad one.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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Jan,
Thank you.
I've made the changes to the INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY

(however, they will not actually "post" immediately - usually not until 9:00 GMT, but sometimes sooner and sometimes later ... an "internet mystery") :rolleyes:

(it will post as "Version 10.47")
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
-ja- is good for the reader/listener but bad for the writer/speaker. And bad for South Slavs in general. Because it's true: if you speak a language in which all E, JAT' and Ę become E, it's not easy to guess which one to pick.


I know, I was always saying that Slovianski should not make distinctions that at least one natural language doesn't make. This philosophy indeed should be used as much as possible throughout Slovianski, but in terms of sound laws it is very dangerous. Look:

- e/ja is not a distinction south Slavic makes, therefore Slovianski should have e always, no ja.
- a/o is not a distinction Belarusian makes. To a Belarusian, a in svaboda looks the same as a in katan, and he can't tell when his a changes to o and when it doesn't. Therefore Slovianski should have a always, no o.
- 'u/i is not a distinction Czech makes. To a Czech, i in plivati looks the same as i in list, and he can't tell when his i changes to 'u and when it doesn't. Therefore Slovianski should have i always, no 'u.

And I believe many other such examples could be found. In this direction, Slovianski would soon end up as a language with one vowel only, or with very few vowels, less than any natural Slavic language. For sound laws, it might be better to use the reader/listener's point of view. In fact, Naučni Slovianski is a really excellent idea, as the easiest to read inter-Slavic language ever designed (or as a source code easily compiled into individual national orthographies, either through one's mind or through a computer programme). The only problem is that one probably must know a lot of Slavic languages (or proto-Slavic) to use it actively. We cannot expect such expertise from an average Slovianski user. Nevertheless on the contrary, it is nearly inevitable that a Slav with no linguistic experience at all, knowing only his own native language, will have troubles with writing any (event the simplest) form of Slovianski, he will always have to consult a dictionary. Unless Slovianski is going to have only one vowel, as outlined above.

Vsə lədə rədəjət sə svəbədnə ə rəvnə və dəstəjnəstə ə prəvəh. Ənə sət əbdərənə rəzəməm ə svəstə ə əməjət pəstəpətə ədən də drəgəgə və dəhə brətstvə.

Maybe ę > e itself is not that bad, and I don't want to dispute what has been decided during my absence. It's also true that concessions for a whole branch of Slavic languages should be more acceptable than concessions for one language only such as Czech or Belarusian. But generally we should be very careful about such "simplifying" mergers.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel Svoboda
Jul 5 2010, 07:10 AM
I know, I was always saying that Slovianski should not make distinctions that at least one natural language doesn't make. This philosophy indeed should be used as much as possible throughout Slovianski, but in terms of sound laws it is very dangerous. Look: [...] But generally we should be very careful about such "simplifying" mergers.

You are of course right about that, Gabriel. I think this is probably as far as we will get with this. Ę is a bit of a peculiar case, because it is neither E nor JA, and in terms of votes they end up ex equo. I don't think we have any more problematic cases like that.

Quote:
 
In fact, Naučni Slovianski is a really excellent idea, as the easiest to read inter-Slavic language ever designed (or as a source code easily compiled into individual national orthographies, either through one's mind or through a computer programme).

Thank you! Well, the idea was basically not that it would ever be used in internet chats or the like. But Naučni Slovianski is something a trained person can produce when required, and it can be useful in presenting/transforming ready-made texts.

You will notice that not every character in Naučni Slovianski is needed for Slovianski, like infinitive markers or adjective markers. That's why I also suggested "Slovianski Plus", which is basically nothing but Slovianski using a few diacritics. I might even start using it myself and see what happens. Note that much as I abhor forms like fil'm or bor'ba, I don't have the slightest problem with writing fiĺm and boŕba.

Quote:
 
The only problem is that one probably must know a lot of Slavic languages (or proto-Slavic) to use it actively. We cannot expect such expertise from an average Slovianski user. Nevertheless on the contrary, it is nearly inevitable that a Slav with no linguistic experience at all, knowing only his own native language, will have troubles with writing any (event the simplest) form of Slovianski, he will always have to consult a dictionary.

Quite so. And that's how the idea was born to have a 'three-step Slovianski": one with an extremely simplified grammar and orthography (have you seen my proposal "Slovianto"?), one with a more complete phonology, orthography and grammar for scientific purposes, and one in between.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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First of all : I don't see quite good a reason to mark palatalization in such international nouns like "film". Do you ?

Great job with this Interslavic dictionary ! It's easy and useful. I wish I would have something like that for my language. :D
Good luck !

PS.: I've found a little lack in comment/ code for 's'. It sometimes occurs with words like road - droga and what I suppose, 's' means 'severny' - Northern Slavic (East + West Slavic). But sometimes is also written : 'n' (cf. way = podoba) - I guess by English 'northern'. It is a bit confusing.
Could it be seen a list of last added words ? It would be very nice for those who enjoy this language. :P
Edited by bandziol20, Sep 7 2011, 07:13 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Piem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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