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JA, JAT to E; Nasal E Reflex to E
Topic Started: Jun 11 2010, 10:52 PM (2,577 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Theoretically it could. But it wouldn't match the way Slovianski handles other numerals, and that's why IMO it's better to avoid declension here as well.

deset' - dvadeset' - trideset' - petdeset'
sto - dvasto - tristo - petsto

Polish has:
dziesięć (nom.sg.) - dwadzieścia (nom.du.) - trzydzieści (nom.pl.) - pięćdziesiąt (gen.pl.)
sto (nom.sg.) - dwieście (nom.du.) - trzysta (nom.pl.) - pięćset (gen.pl.)

If we decline tiseč, we should decline the rest as well:
deset' - dvadeseti - trideseti - petdeseti (?)
sto - dvasta - trista - četirista - petsot

But do we really want that, since even Slovak has just dvasto, tristo, ptsto? Besides, dvasta looks very wrong somehow, much more so than dvasto. If we'd go for declined numerals, my feeling is that we might as well use dual forms here: dveste, dve tiseča or something similar.

Personally, I'd still prefer treating numerals as indeclinable. For reasons of simplification, that is. The trouble with numerals that when it comes to declension they don't behave like normal adjectives. If we'd decline "2", we'd get: dva (mn), dve (f), dvoh, dvoma, because dual forms can't be avoided. And what would be the genitive of četiri and pet' - četireh and petju/peti? That's why it's better to make them static, because "tih dva muov" and "s timi sedem knigami" are equally well understood.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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Quote:
 
"...That's why it's better to make them static..."


I again agree with Jan.
I know from experience with my kolegi, however, that there will be an ongoing tendency for each Slavic speaker to use the form s/he is most familiar with (at least initially). In other words, numbers may or may not be declined during actual writing.
(I find this occurs more with our HR/SR speakers and less with our CZ/SK speakers [I do not have enough experience with our PL speakers' writings to draw a conclusion yet there] ).

Thus, IMO, the "official grammar" should be static for this/these words.
...but, I acknowledge that each different speaker will probably use his or her own favourite word form nonetheless - (which will be understandable). ;)

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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in the case of twenty/thirty Russian and Ukrainian have static numbers formed by dva + desjat' or tri + desjat'

two hundred has the dual dve + ste
three/four hundred has the "normal" form tri/czetiri + sta
five hundred has pjat' + sot

but if we're using completely regular numbers, then my feeling is we should be using completely regular numbers for dvanadeset', trinadeset', etc.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Jun 18 2010, 04:19 PM
in the case of twenty/thirty Russian and Ukrainian have static numbers formed by dva + desjat' or tri + desjat'

two hundred has the dual dve + ste
three/four hundred has the "normal" form tri/czetiri + sta
five hundred has pjat' + sot

Yeah, we could probably do such a thing as well. OTOH, Slovak always has -sto, and I kinda like Gabriel's adagium that the Slovianski shouldn't be more complicated or less regular than the simplest solution proposed by a natlang. From that point of view we better stick to dvasto, tristo, petsto.

Quote:
 
but if we're using completely regular numbers, then my feeling is we should be using completely regular numbers for dvanadeset', trinadeset', etc.

Makes sense. I've only one problem with that: dvanadeset' and dvadeset' look a bit too similar to each other. Besides, a Pole (and probably many others as well) wouldn't automatically analyse the Polish ending -naście as something related to -na-deset'. From that point of view I feel we'd better keep -nast.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
steeven
Jun 18 2010, 03:45 PM
Quote:
 
"...That's why it's better to make them static..."


I again agree with Jan.
I know from experience with my kolegi, however, that there will be an ongoing tendency for each Slavic speaker to use the form s/he is most familiar with (at least initially). In other words, numbers may or may not be declined during actual writing.
(I find this occurs more with our HR/SR speakers and less with our CZ/SK speakers [I do not have enough experience with our PL speakers' writings to draw a conclusion yet there] ).

That's an interesting thing in itself: whence the difference?

My educated guess regarding the Poles would be that they inflect the numbers, but only as far as they write them in full. In most cases they'll simply write "9" or "66".

Quote:
 
Thus, IMO, the "official grammar" should be static for this/these words.
...but, I acknowledge that each different speaker will probably use his or her own favourite word form nonetheless - (which will be understandable).  ;)

Indeed. We definitely should not prescribe inflected forms. Standard procedure is in such cases always: "this is what we suggest, but if you are a Slav and you think you know better, then by all means write it the way you feel would be correct. And if you aren't a Slav, then be prepared that Slavs might do that" (which is also more or less what Hellerick wrote in his Rozumio description, IIRC).
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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wannabeme
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In BCS only 1,2,3,4 can be inflected but usualy people dont do this neither.

Normaly it should be said.
Ja sedim s četirima ljudima.
But people say: Ja sedim s četiri čoveka.

Thus no matter which case should be, its always genitive. For 2,3,4 singular and for 5,6,7,8,9... plural so it is: Ja sedim s pet ljudi.
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pedza
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Maybe the best part of the language is that we have to change the name of the language to Slovenski, and that's not good.
V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njego
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
pedza
Jun 24 2010, 11:10 PM
Maybe the best part of the language is that we have to change the name of the language to Slovenski, and that's not good.

No, because in this case it comes from a jat', not from a nasal vowel. It's a bit of an odd word, that doesn't behave regularly from language to language. That goes both for SLOV-/SLAV- as for -EN-/-JAN-, which are distributed in a very strange way. Don't ask me why!
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination ča/ja/etc.

So in words like Galičěninŭ yat' became a as in Galičanin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slověninŭ into Slovjaninŭ
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Jun 25 2010, 08:52 AM
Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination a/ja/etc.

So in words like Galininŭ yat' became a as in Galianin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slovninŭ into Slovjaninŭ

Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. So that makes it a case of symmetry, right?

BTW, do you have any idea why "slov-" becomes "slav-" in some languages?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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wannabeme
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IJzeren Jan
Jun 25 2010, 11:07 AM
iopq
Jun 25 2010, 08:52 AM
Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination a/ja/etc.

So in words like Galininŭ yat' became a as in Galianin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slovninŭ into Slovjaninŭ

Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. So that makes it a case of symmetry, right?

BTW, do you have any idea why "slov-" becomes "slav-" in some languages?

Perhaps it has something to do with that that o and a have the same "birth".
They developed from the same vowel, from the short developed o and from the long a.

That why we have some disagreements between perfect and imperfect stems of verbs.

roditi radjati
koriti karjati
zvoniti zvanjati etc.

Besides, Oldchurchslavonic says Slov-, the most of Slavs say also Slov-, only Russian and Belorussian say Slav, the same as Bulgarian, but I am shure that it is a russian influence too.
So perhaps its only some kind of russian akanje stuff, but honestly I dont got a clue.
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wannabeme
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iopq
Jun 25 2010, 08:52 AM
Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination ča/ja/etc.

So in words like Galičěninŭ yat' became a as in Galičanin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slověninŭ into Slovjaninŭ

I dont agree with it.
AfIk only eastlavic languages say slavJAnsk- and slovJAnsk- which are the languages that reflexed nasal e like ja. Right?
Other dont say Slavjani exept Bulgarians which is an influence of Russian Churchslavonic. In Oldbulgarian it says Slovęnsk.
Slovenians say slovAnski instead of expected slovenski in order to be able to distinguish it from slovenski which means slovenian.
The same stuff in Polish, Czech and Slovak.

slověne apears only a few time in serbian writings but the serbian writers mixed nasal e and jat the whole time because both got pronounced as "ja".
So they even wrote "ě s'm gospod bog tvoj..." instead of "ja s'm gospod bog tvoj...".
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pedza
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wannabeme
Jun 25 2010, 04:22 PM
IJzeren Jan
Jun 25 2010, 11:07 AM
iopq
Jun 25 2010, 08:52 AM
Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination a/ja/etc.

So in words like Galininŭ yat' became a as in Galianin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slovninŭ into Slovjaninŭ

Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. So that makes it a case of symmetry, right?

BTW, do you have any idea why "slov-" becomes "slav-" in some languages?

Perhaps it has something to do with that that o and a have the same "birth".
They developed from the same vowel, from the short developed o and from the long a.

That why we have some disagreements between perfect and imperfect stems of verbs.

roditi radjati
koriti karjati
zvoniti zvanjati etc.

Besides, Oldchurchslavonic says Slov-, the most of Slavs say also Slov-, only Russian and Belorussian say Slav, the same as Bulgarian, but I am shure that it is a russian influence too.
So perhaps its only some kind of russian akanje stuff, but honestly I dont got a clue.

Slaven is also used by the Croats hence the eastern and western variant of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey,_Slavs#Early_use
V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njego
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iopq
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wannabeme
Jun 25 2010, 08:46 AM
iopq
Jun 25 2010, 08:52 AM
Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination ča/ja/etc.

So in words like Galičěninŭ yat' became a as in Galičanin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slověninŭ into Slovjaninŭ

I dont agree with it.
AfIk only eastlavic languages say slavJAnsk- and slovJAnsk- which are the languages that reflexed nasal e like ja. Right?
Other dont say Slavjani exept Bulgarians which is an influence of Russian Churchslavonic. In Oldbulgarian it says Slovęnsk.
Slovenians say slovAnski instead of expected slovenski in order to be able to distinguish it from slovenski which means slovenian.
The same stuff in Polish, Czech and Slovak.

slověne apears only a few time in serbian writings but the serbian writers mixed nasal e and jat the whole time because both got pronounced as "ja".
So they even wrote "ě s'm gospod bog tvoj..." instead of "ja s'm gospod bog tvoj...".

Czech has slovanský

and no, OCS has словѣньскъ
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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iopq
Jun 25 2010, 09:40 PM
wannabeme
Jun 25 2010, 08:46 AM
iopq
Jun 25 2010, 08:52 AM
Ok, you may ask ME why. This is because yat' becomes ja after palatals forming the combination ča/ja/etc.

So in words like Galičěninŭ yat' became a as in Galičanin
So in a lot of Slavic languages this change spread to other words that DIDN'T have a palatal before the yat', making Slověninŭ into Slovjaninŭ

I dont agree with it.
AfIk only eastlavic languages say slavJAnsk- and slovJAnsk- which are the languages that reflexed nasal e like ja. Right?
Other dont say Slavjani exept Bulgarians which is an influence of Russian Churchslavonic. In Oldbulgarian it says Slovęnsk.
Slovenians say slovAnski instead of expected slovenski in order to be able to distinguish it from slovenski which means slovenian.
The same stuff in Polish, Czech and Slovak.

slověne apears only a few time in serbian writings but the serbian writers mixed nasal e and jat the whole time because both got pronounced as "ja".
So they even wrote "ě s'm gospod bog tvoj..." instead of "ja s'm gospod bog tvoj...".

Czech has slovanský

and no, OCS has словѣньскъ

Well since you dont write any refutation on my arguments i will asume that you agree with me that it is slovjanski at which -ja- comes from the nasal e.

Yes Czech has slovAnski, thats what I said too.

About jat in CS but not OCS I have said already.
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