| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| JA, JAT to E; Nasal E Reflex to E | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 11 2010, 10:52 PM (2,578 Views) | |
| Moraczewski | Jun 16 2010, 11:55 AM Post #31 |
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For me tisjacza, tisecza, tisicza would mean the same. tisucza will require some effort, but within appropriate context it will be no problem. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| pedza | Jun 16 2010, 02:23 PM Post #32 |
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Tisuč, tisič or we might consider the less popular hiljada (iljada) used by South Slavs, originated from the Greek χιλιάς (khiliás) which I don't think will be a good idea. |
| »V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 16 2010, 02:48 PM Post #33 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, I'd say the most logical solution is tiseč after all:
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Jun 17 2010, 12:08 AM Post #34 |
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In BCS its not tisuč, but tisuća if it stands alone like a number. But mostly it stands in accusative like tisuću or in plural tisuće. The ordinal nb woud be tisućiti. jedna tisuća dve tisući pet tisuć Since we have tisuču and tisjaču in living slavlangs, let us have both in Slovjanski too. Besides to me tisjača sounds better than tiseč so i asume we can make an exception here because its easier for eastslavs. Southslavs and Westslavs have tisUću anyway. |
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| steeven | Jun 17 2010, 05:28 AM Post #35 |
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HR jedna tisuća dvije tisuće pet tisuća PL tysiąc dwa tysiące pięć tysięcy CZ jeden tisíc dva tisíce pět tisíc SK tisíc dvetisíc päť tisíc SL tisoč dva tisoč pet tisoč UA тисяча дві тисячі п'ять тисяч RU (одна) тысяча две тысячи пять тысяч ____________________________________ I agree with Jan - that "TISEČ" is probably the best compromise for -suća -siąc -síc -soč -сяча :rolleyes: |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| Moraczewski | Jun 17 2010, 12:50 PM Post #36 |
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I add that tisjacz looks weird because of this j that is hated by many. So better tisecz then. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| wannabeme | Jun 17 2010, 07:02 PM Post #37 |
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Actualy in most of cases Polish ą is u in Slovjanski. Czech and sometimes Slovak í were an stressed ju or in the past. I dont know how it is today but afik both ju and i are allowed, example "ja chcu" and "ja chci". So that actualy tisuča would be southslovjanski, tisjuč like westslovjanski and tiseča like eastslovjanski. So we have -a at the end for east and south and we have u, ju, for south and west. For me tisjuča sounds a middle solution. How that sounds to east and westslavs? |
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| steeven | Jun 17 2010, 08:40 PM Post #38 |
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wannabeme wrote: "Actualy in most of cases Polish ą is u in Slovjanski." The Polish letter " ą " is a nasalised vowel which is similar to the French pronunciation of: " en " or " on "; definitely not an " u " / " y " sound (in "Slovioski" we use either "e" or "ou" NP: THEY ARE = "oni sou") That is why I support the ending "SEČ" - because the " E " is neutral to and can represent all of the Natural Endings: " -suća -siąc -síc -soč -сяча ". wannabeme wrote: "So we have -a at the end for east and south and we have u, ju, for south and west." I do not follow you here? |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Jun 17 2010, 10:37 PM Post #39 |
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Administrator
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no, you misunderstand in most cases iÄ… is ja in Slovak or East Slavic Ä… after a HARD consonant is u this is because in Polish both sounds merged into one nasal vowel first so tisjucza is terrible because: 1. if we pick the correct reflex of the nasals it's either tisucza or tisjacza/tisecza NOT tisjucza (this form exists nowhere and Polish actually supports tisecza/tisjacza) 2. if we pick the correct ending vowel it's tisecz not tisecza because most languages don't have an a at the end so the correct form is tisecz/tisjacz depending on which reflex we use |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| wannabeme | Jun 18 2010, 06:00 AM Post #40 |
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Thank you steeven I know about the pronounciation of the nasals in polish. I only mixed them up in polish. But still what I meant to say is that the polish tisiąc merged from tisjętj and not from tisętj because it would sound tisąc then and not tisiąc. Right? But in plural polish has "pięć tysięcy" so we cannot decide if it came from the protoslaviv jǫ and ję. Eastslavic tisiača derived from protoslavic tisętja. and Southslavic from protoslavic tisǫtja. I asume that Czech and Slovak tisic derived from the protoslavic tisǫtj too, because afaik there is no e to i (exept jat) change in Czech but only u to í. Moravian dialect still keeps u and say "ja chcu" and not "ja chci" like standard Czech. About the ending -a now that you didnt undestand ![]() I only meant that eastslavs and southslavs both say tisjačA or tisučA and only westslavs say tisic or tisiac like it would be masculin. So I proposed to keep it feminin like tiseča or if you want it not to be feminin than we should say tisuč because only tiseč is very unpredictible for Southslavs. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 18 2010, 08:33 AM Post #41 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, that's not entirely true. The vowel is usually denasalised, while a nasal consonant is inserted depending on the following consonant: kąt > kont głąb > głomp tysiąc > tysionc łąka > łonka This is one of the things many Poles make mistakes with, BTW. The same mistake works also the other way round: konto > kąto At the end of a word it's usually pronounced like some sort of -[ou~]. The pronunciation [-Om] can be heard as well, but is considered very low register. Polish ą en ę can both stem from Common Slavic ǫ en ę: when preceded by a hard consonant usually from ǫ, when preceded by a soft consonant usually from ę (sometimes from jǫ). For the record: I have no idea why it's written ą in Polish, because it has nothing in common with a. Cashubian also has a nasalised a, ă. As for 1000, I think anything that has the form tis*č(a) will be understandable. Obviously, W en E Slavic draw from tysęt'-, S Slavic from tysǫt'-. Since we decided that ę > e, tisjač is no longer an option, while tisuč would be a minority solution. A compromise solution, tysjǫt', would generate tišuč, which we don't want either. So yes, I'd say tiseč is probably the best we can come up with. As for -a: it's a close call, West Slavic + Slovene vs. East Slavic + BCS. I still prefer a form without -a, because the number 1000 is not declined in Slovianski: tiseč, dva-tiseč, tri-tiseč, dvadeset'-tiseč. With -a, that looks sort of awkward. [čćч] |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 18 2010, 08:56 AM Post #42 |
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Administrator
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why is it not declined, that's kind of awkward jedna tisecz dve tisecze pet' tisecz that seems to be the most common |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Jun 18 2010, 08:58 AM Post #43 |
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Isn't that a dual? |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Jun 18 2010, 09:41 AM Post #44 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/grammar1#numerals And please let's avoid duals; Slovianski is an IAL, for heaven's sake. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Jun 18 2010, 10:10 AM Post #45 |
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Administrator
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well I would hope we would say: jedna devczina dve devczini tri devczini czetire devczini pet' devczin szest' devczin why wouldn't this apply to numerals? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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