Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti.
Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности.
Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit.

Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno.

Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community!
Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti:
Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности:
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
JA, JAT to E; Nasal E Reflex to E
Topic Started: Jun 11 2010, 10:52 PM (2,579 Views)
steeven
Member Avatar

pedza
Jun 12 2010, 06:12 PM
Quote:
 
každi, už, že, dlja, ktori, než, libo, tuttoj, tamtoj, tutčas, tutdenj and so on...


When I started writing something in Slovjanski, I came across words like this which were confusing. I still don't know when to use za and when dlja hehe. ;) Without looking at the dictionary I can at the moment only understand dlja, ktori, libo, tuttoj, tamtoj, and I remember that I learnt those when I started learning Slovjanski. These words would indeed be confusing to South Slavs.

I'm in doubt whether to translate tutčas and tutdenj as now (this hour) and today...


You raise a point that we in our "Slovioski" version of our "Interslavic Language" have chosen to address by including two synonyms for "each" / "every" - "KAZXDIJ" and "VSAKIJ".

Nonetheless, in working with a "medzxuslovjanskij" language (or any "medzxu" language), sometimes we will be forced to have a primary word that will not be recognised by some Slavic speakers. "NEZX" is one such word

although, if you think about it "NEZX" is etymologically very much related to the HR corresponding word "NEGO" or "NEGO SXTO"
(however, "NEGO" does not work for our "medzxuslovjanskij" language, because it conflicts with RU and PL word-forms for "him" (~in HR = "njega").

"TUTCXAS" does raise an interesting question.
Currently, in both the combined INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY and Jan's SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY, "TUTCXAS" is shown to mean "NOW".

However, not too long ago, I believe in this forum the new word for "HOUR" was added: "CXASINA", which would mean that in Slovianski "THIS HOUR" would be: "TUTTA CXASINA" (in Slovioski version of Interslavic = "TUTJA CXASINA" ).

I find all of this to be very exciting!

:D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

In Serbian there is - ovaj ÄŤas....
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pedza
Member Avatar

Jarvi
Jun 13 2010, 07:52 AM
In Serbian there is - ovaj ÄŤas....

Ovaj čas would make sense to me at least but tutčas literally translates to here hour/ovdje čas. I would never associate that with now. People who learn Slovjanski will understand this eventually but if someone heard 'tutčas', at least in South Slavic countries, they wouldn't understand what you meant.
»V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wannabeme
Member Avatar

Jarvi
Jun 12 2010, 05:39 PM

The only thing where I don't agree with you.
I don't want "pet'" to be an exception and write "piat'", but writing it as pęť and not as pet will make it far more clear at least for East Slavs and for Poles also, I think.

How could people know when to write Ä™ and when e. The same as with ja and e.
pet' and peti (alt. even pejati or pojati) are not to be confused.
Besides, I really cannot imagene a sentence where it wouldnt be clear from the context.

Well, if you linguists want to have so much diacritics over and under, have it but dont show it to the publicity. People are gonna be so appalled, that they're gonna immediately click the little x sign on the top right (or left in case they are using Apple) :-)

I think the only people wich wouldnt be scared would be Vietnameses :-)

No, but realy guys let us try only with e for now, and then we will see farward.
If people really will have bad feeling or bad understanding then we will see how we can make it better.



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
I still don't understand the reason why e is better than ja
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wannabeme
Member Avatar

iopq
Jun 14 2010, 08:02 AM
I still don't understand the reason why e is better than ja

1) so that we can subtract jat and nasal e reflex. The whole South branch + Chech dont feel where to put e and where ja because in their langs its all only e.
It is easier for the substract e and ja to e than extract e and ja from e when you dont know how and most of people dont know how to do that.
2) Aestetics
3) je would be a compromise between ja and e. Since almost the whole East branch is goint to pronounce e like je anyway, the e would be a fair choise.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Not so fast, people! To begin with, this orthography with many diacritics is surely not meant to replace good old Slovianski in any way. I have another idea for it, but I'll write about that in a separate message.

For the rest, I think we have to take into consideration one thing: before Dražen and Pedza joined the team, we almost didn't have any input from South Slavs. We always took South Slavic into consideration of course when creating words or forms, but there was very little direct feedback, except for the occasional "Hey, I can understand 90% of it" in discussions elsewhere. I am not surprised if people say that Slovianski is a lot less friendly towards South Slavs than towards the rest, and if that is the case, then we should try to correct that mistake. Of course, South Slavic is more different from West and East Slavic than the latter are from each other (hence the distinction between "North Slavic" and "South Slavic"), as a result of which poor South Slavic is often outvoted by the rest. I'm not saying we should start introducing South Slavic elements that won't work for West/East Slavs, but at least in 50/50 cases we might want to give South Slavic the benefit of the doubt.

Ę > JA/E is such a case of 50/50. E is good for South Slavs, JA is good for East Slavs, Czech and Slovak don't treat this thing consistently, while for Poles it doesn't make much of a difference. Tjagnuti is better for a Pole than tegnuti (ciągnąć), but se is better than sja (się, usually pronounced [s_jE]).

For the record, if you look at the soundchanges that Slovianski applies, South Slavic is definitely in the minority. Look:
ę > ja: nicest for East Slavs
-or- > -ro-: nicest for Poles
syllabic -r- > -or-: nicest for East Slavs
syllabic -l- > -ol-: nicest for East Slavs
kt/tj > č: nicest for East Slavs
kv'-/gv'- > cv-: nicest for East and South Slavs
šč > šč: nicest for East Slavs and Poles
If you look at this, it's quite obvious that East Slavic is overrepresented and South Slavic is underrepresented. The only exception is cvet/zvezda instead of kvet/gvezda, but there are only a few words involved here.

Of course, counting votes is not all there is when it comes to soundchanges. When the languages differ, the optimal form would be a compromise (like -ro- for -oro-/-ro-/-ra-), however, that cannot be said of e/ja, because here we have only two options, and a compromise is impossible.

Pjat' is completely natural for Russians and Poles. Not only in understanding, but also in writing: if a Pole knows that Ć > T' and Ę > JA, he won't even have to check the dictionary. But if somebody is used to writing pet? There's no way for him to know whether to write pet, pet', pjat or pjat'. If a Pole knows that Ę > E, he can write pet' anyway without thinking. For a Russian it would be less easy, because in various other cases JA comes from JA, but still easier than E > JA for a South Slav; besides, I think in most cases intuition will take care of it.

The reason why I proposed Ę > JA instead of e long ago, was that longer forms are usually easier to understand for those who are used to a shorter form than the other way round. If a South Slav sees "pjat'", all he needs to know is that JA usually corresponds with his E. Besides, Slovianski E can already stem from E, JAT' or Ь. What I didn't think of, however, is that this feature makes Slovianski pretty hard to use actively if you speak a language that doesn't make these distinctions either.

And yes, I think Dražen has a point when he writes that context will make it clear what's meant anyway. I mean, how often will it happen that "5" can be confused with "to sing"?

EDIT: And yes, there's also aesthetics. We switched from pjat' to piat' because people didn't like all those J, then we switched back because people didn't like those I either. Pjet' only makes it worse, because it would look horrible both in Serban ánd in non- Serbian Cyrillics. Pat' is obviously not an option, so why not try pet', then?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Well then, if nobody has any other arguments in favour of ja, then I think we can conclude we better switch to e, right?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
steeven
Member Avatar

IJzeren Jan
Jun 15 2010, 07:22 PM
Well then, if nobody has any other arguments in favour of ja, then I think we can conclude we better switch to e, right?

Jan:

"across the board" for "ja" to "e"
or just for "FIVE (5)"?
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

Not "across the board". But everywhere where South Slavic languages have "e" and East have "ja".
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Obviously so. In other words, in places where Common Slavic has ę. I'm definitely not proposing that armija be replaced with armie!

Like I said, the effect on the average text is minimal, but it can be seen quite well in the numerals 1-10:

jedin - dva - tri - četiri - pet' - šest' - sedem - osem - devet' - deset'

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pedza
Member Avatar

Aye! :)
»V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
it seems like a bitch to change the dictionary, though

go write some texts using this rule and we'll see if it's worthwhile
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
It's not so bad, really. As a matter of fact, I've gone through a similar thing with the OL/UL thing and back. Mostly a matter of find-and-replace, which is not really hard, because all that needs to be checked are the sequences ja, ia, ša, ža, ča. Going back would be a lot harder, though!

I've been wondering about the word for 1000. With JA, it's tisjač. However, I'm not so sure about tiseč. Russian and Ukrainian have tysjača, Polish has tysiąc, Czech and Slovak have tisíc, Slovene has tisoč and Serbian has tisuč. It seems like Proto-Slavic had both tiso~tj-/tisętj-.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
it has to be tisucz I guess since tisecza won't ring a bell for anyone
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic »
Add Reply