Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti.
Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности.
Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit.

Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno.

Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community!
Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti:
Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности:
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
JA, JAT to E; Nasal E Reflex to E
Topic Started: Jun 11 2010, 10:52 PM (2,576 Views)
wannabeme
Member Avatar

I have seen that the -JA- causes only troubles in Slovianski.
In reality Slovianski looks much nicer with E reflex of the nasal-e.

It doesnt really changes so much in comprehence but it does make it much easier to write for many Slavs.

For example Poles, who already have many probems about changing almost all they vowels and writing system, would now know that all their e, ie, ia, a, em stuff goes to e.

Bulgarians, Slovenians and most of Serbians also dont distinct jat-e from nasal reflex-e. So how would they ever know where to write JA and where E.
On the other hand it is easier for Eastslavs to contract that their E and JA both to E.

After all, we all know that the Russian spaekers will always read E like "JE" and even every unstressed Я is pronounced as "je or ji" like "pjet'" and "jizik".
Farther, it solves many unregularities like mene, me, sebe, se and so on.
It makes Slovianski look much more pretty without many j-s.


I cela zemja imala jedin jezik i podobne slova.
Ali kogda ljudi premestili se iz voshoda, oni našli rovninu v kraje Šinar i tam osadili se.
I oni govorili jedin drugomu: "Hodijte, izdelajme ceglini i dobro palijme ih!" I ceglini služili im kak kameni, a smola služila im kak cement.
I oni govorili: "Hodijte, budujme grod i vežu, ktora bude dosegati do neba, i izdelajme si imeno, da bi mi ne rozsipali se na celu zemju."
Togda Bog izšel v dol, da bi videl grod i vežu, ktore detka ljudov budovali.
I Bog govoril: "Vidijte! Jedin narod i jedin jezik dlja vsih, a vidij, čo oni načali delati. I tutčas, ničo ne bude dlja nih ne-možlive, čo oni ne bi hoteli izdelati.
Vidijte! Izpustime se i rozmešime ih jezik, da bi oni se ne rozumeli jedin drugogo."
I Bog rozsipal ih na celu zemju, a oni obstanovili budovati grod.
Preto on naziva se Babel, preto čo tam Bog rozmešil jezik celoj zemji i odtude Bog rozsipal ih na celu zemju.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
(in haste)

Yes, I have to agree with Dražen. We have talked about this a while ago, and it made me realise that -ja- is good for the reader/listener but bad for the writer/speaker. And bad for South Slavs in general. Because it's true: if you speak a language in which all E, JAT' and Ę become E, it's not easy to guess which one to pick. We know by experiene now that people don't really learn Slovianski. Most of all, they just take notice of the grammar and read a few texts in it, after which they'll simply try to imitate it. Usually, I've seen they manage quite well! So we shouldn't make it harder for them than necessary.

Voting-wise it doesn't make much of a difference. South Slavic has JA, East Slavic has E, West Slavic is somewhere in between. Speaking on behalf of the Polish I'd say that gledeti isn't much more or less understandable than gljadati. Of course, a word like pet' can cause problems to Poles, because Polish has pięć, pet, piec, piać, pięt, pęd and who knows what else. However, context will usually take care of that.

So yes, I have also come to see the advantages of E instead of JA. We'd get rid of a few ugly J's, like those in pjat' and rjadko. Furthermore, the impact on the general look-and-feel of Slovianski would be rather limited. Most occurrences of JA in the dictionary are part of words like zemja or akademija, and wouldn't be affected. The change would be most visible in the field of numerals, but well, I can live with pet', devet', deset' (not sure about tiseč) as well. For the rest we have words like gledeti, se, red, zet', detel, dekovati, tegnuti, segnuti... Well, I honestly don't think it makes much of a difference. But if changing this would make Slovianski more South-Slavic-friendly, then I think we should go for it.

[čćя]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

Until today, I was for "JA".
The only problem I have with "E" is that some words can be confusing (and some very confusing). But may be it will not make much effect - we should try.

And, true, there are problems with "JA". First - I don't feel comfortable with it in Latin neither within j-convention nor within i-convention. Second, yes, for many it seems sort of Russian Imperialist influence (while it is definitely not). But third, the most hard problem is for BG, MK, SLO, who have no means to make difference between "E" and nasal "E".

Oh, if "JA" is so problematic, then I'd rather screw all "JA" advantages and go for "E".
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
then you create problems for East Slavic and Slovak speakers
when you adopt words into Slovianski you will have to make a guess about the origin of -ja-

jagnjatko or jegnjatko? obovezan or obovjazan? nedelja or nedele? an East Slavic speaker won't be able to tell the correct form

what I'm saying is that for all the benefits there are equal disadvantages
I'd much rather change -ro-/-lo- to -ra-/-la- before this
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
of course, some words like jezik and red look worse for the majority of languages

the form jazik for tongue is supported by Czech, Slovak, Macedonian and East Slavic
the word red is so short it is not recognizable to East Slavic speakers as anything
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
then you create problems for East Slavic and Slovak speakers
when you adopt words into Slovianski you will have to make a guess about the origin of -ja-

jagnjatko or jegnjatko? obovezan or obovjazan? nedelja or nedele? an East Slavic speaker won't be able to tell the correct form

Yes, that's indeed a problem. And I also believe rjad is easier to understand for the red guys than the opposite.

Quote:
 
what I'm saying is that for all the benefits there are equal disadvantages
I'd much rather change -ro-/-lo- to -ra-/-la- before this

That's true as well, and I'm certainly not saying -ra-/-la- is impossible. However, -ro-/-lo- is essentially a compromise between -ro-, -ró-, -oro-, -ra-, which adds greatly to the idea of Slovianski as a generic Slavic language. The same cannot be said of -e-/-ja-/-ę-. But yes, I guess it can be equally hard for a South Slavic that brada becomes broda, but brat remains brat.

Also, I think we shouldn't exaggerate. If we'd change this as well, then the next step would probably be abolishing t', d' etc.

One solution I've been thinking of lately is the creation of an orthography that would give more etymological info about certain vowels:
* rěka, svět, zvězda, dělati, rozuměti, rědko
* pęť, devęť, desęť, sę, ŕęd
* mųdri, ženų, ĺubijųt
* brĺda, grĺd, glĺvni
* pŏlni, vŏlk, bŏršč, kŏrk, bŏz, dostatŏk, vŏjdti
* mërtvi, pës
Obviously, it chats and the like it wouldn't be workable, and in everyday use these ogoneks, hačeks and acutes wouldn't be written at all. However, an orthography like that could be used in one-directional traffic like websites.

I cěla zemja imala jedin jęzik i podobne slova.
Ali kogda ĺuďi prěměstili sę iz voshoda, oni našli rĺvninų v krajě Šinar i tam osadili sę.
I oni govorili jedin drugomu: "Hodijte, izdělajme ceglini i dobro palijme ih!" I ceglini služili im kak kamęni, a smola služila im kak cement.
I oni govorili: "Hodijte, budujme grĺd i věžų, ktora bųde dosęgati do neba, i izdělajme si imeno, da bi mi ne rĺzsipali sę na cělų zemjų."
Togda Bog izšël v dol, da bi viděl grĺd i věžų, ktore detka ĺuďov budovali.
I Bog govoril: "Vidijte! Jedin narod i jedin jęzik dĺa vsih, a vidij, čo oni načęli dělati. I tutčas, ničo ne bųde dĺa nih ne-možlive, čo oni ne bi hotěli izdělati.
Vidijte! Izpustime sę i rĺzměšime ih jęzik, da bi oni sę ne rĺzuměli jedin drugogo."
I Bog rĺzsipal ih na cělų zemjų, a oni obstanovili budovati grĺd.
Zato on naziva sę Babel, zato čo tam Bog rĺzměšil jęzik cěloj zemji i odtųde Bog rĺzsipal ih na cělų zemjų.


[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

Jan, that's great!!

Then obviosly we should use í or ď for y/ы.

This will increase the understandability very much.

Unfortunately we ale locked between two extremes - maximum understandability and comfort in usage.

I only don't understand why is it ŕęd, but rědko? it should be either ŕědko or ręd
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Jarvi
Jun 12 2010, 09:53 AM
Then obviosly we should use í or ď  for y/ы.


That might give trouble with inflection. If anything, I'd go for parallellism: i for y and ǐ (i-haček) for i. Unfortunately we can't use y, because that would violate the "rule" that all diacritics can simply be omitted (except š/č/ž of course).

Quote:
 
Unfortunately we ale locked between two extremes - maximum understandability and comfort in usage.

Yeah, that's a problem. An orthography like this can't be written by anybody without special tools, so it might increase understandability, but would scare off people anyway. Because it's that simple: if people can't write it, they won't. After seeing it on the main page, they'll probably run away before they have even read that all this stuff can be omitted as well. Besides, there is no decent way of transposing all this into Cyrillic. So it was rather a loose idea.

Quote:
 
I only don't understand why is it  ŕęd, but rědko? it should be either ŕědko or ręd

That was a typo. Ręd and rědko it should be. Eventually ŕ could be used in cases like boŕba, buŕa, moŕe.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pedza
Member Avatar

From the beginning I would like to say that I HIGHLY oppose this because this is going to turn Slovjanski into a Pseudo-Proto-Slavic language. What these letters say is basically 'fill in the gaps'. A Southern Slavic language speaker from Macedonia or Serbia will pronounce svět as svet, from Montenegro, Bosnia, Croatia as svijet and from Dalmatia as svit. This will create a mess and the language will lack consistency. Also we could then forget the 'can be written with any keyboard layout' concept, and let's not forget raping the Latin alphabet with more obnoxious diacritics. We also wouldn't have a chance of porting this to the Cyrillic alphabet. Also, we would be using letters which aren't used by any Slavic language which is pretty much wrong when you're trying to create a common Slavic language.

I see this alphabet as a great tool to teach Slovjanski to Slavs so they further understand the roots of a word but being used as an official alphabet would be a bad choice and would definitely scare new people off!
»V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

Of course, we can't simply apply this orthography.

So anyway, E is the most preferred solution.

For some ambigious cases like red or pet', probably we can recommend to write ogonek? I sometimes see in BCS forums that they put the stress marks in some ambigious cases like sȃm (alone/oneself) vs. sam (present tense 1st person sg. of "biti")
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
no, we can't rely on orthography to disambiguate
wouldn't we want to eventually speak the language out loud?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wannabeme
Member Avatar

I must agree with Pedza.
This language is not being made for linguists only.
Our goal is to create a language which would be understandable, easy and natural.
With to many ja-s it looks like transcribed Russian.
With to many appostrophs like some kind of Slovak.
With to many diacritics like a mixture of swedish and polish.
I think that Slovjanski with this features looks easy, and friendly to all of us.

e feature and -ti infinitive make it southslavic enough
vocabulary and declensions make it eastslavic enough
ro, lo- feature, conjugation, declensions of adjectives and adverbs comparison and some special words make it westslavic enough

We should be happy at that moment, we cannot decide if Slovianski looks more like West-, East- or Southslavic, and we are bloody near to that goal.

And dont always be such good complainers like that word should be this way and that this way because we aint capable to adapt.

Please dont you see that all the most used words in Slovianski are everything exept recognizable to Southslavs.

každi, už, že, dlja, ktori, než, libo, tuttoj, tamtoj, tutčas, tutdenj and so on...
and not to tell you about declensions...

You shouldnt be always complaining but also exept something.
Besides I dont see why the hell we should have so many exeptions, its comfusing and only making people complain more and more.
Besides I dont see why pet' shoud be an exeption, for whom, Russians? They say pjet' anyway and if we read pet' Russians will pronounce it like pjet' anyway. So whats the point?


Greetings to all and thank you for supporting my idea!


Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

I do agree with you generally, Dražen,
We always wait for someone from South Slavic countries who will say: this and this word isn't clear for me. I am publishing some text in Slovianski in forums, but most Southern Slavs said: they understand generally everything. But if there are some words that aren't clear, they of course should be discussed here.

The only thing where I don't agree with you.
I don't want "pet'" to be an exception and write "piat'", but writing it as pęť and not as pet will make it far more clear at least for East Slavs and for Poles also, I think. Russians pronounce пять as [p'at'] with soft [p'] and [a] sound. я is pronounced as ['e] only before stress, but under the stress it is always ['a]. That's why [pet'] would mean "to sing" for a Russian and in ambigious context it can make a confusion.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
pedza
Member Avatar

Quote:
 
každi, už, že, dlja, ktori, než, libo, tuttoj, tamtoj, tutčas, tutdenj and so on...


When I started writing something in Slovjanski, I came across words like this which were confusing. I still don't know when to use za and when dlja hehe. ;) Without looking at the dictionary I can at the moment only understand dlja, ktori, libo, tuttoj, tamtoj, and I remember that I learnt those when I started learning Slovjanski. These words would indeed be confusing to South Slavs. I'm in doubt whether to translate tutčas and tutdenj as now (this hour) and today...
»V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje« -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njegoš
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
Actually the Russian pronunciation of пять is [pʲætʲ]
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic »
Add Reply