| Dobrodoli na forum Meduslovjanskogo jezyka! elajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete nae forum kako gosť. To znači, e imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne moete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v nau grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. zaloeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v nau grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li u jeste člen, prijavite se, e byste mogli koristati vse monosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| J treatment again, for the last time; Back to VIDENJE and PJAT'? | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jun 11 2010, 12:07 AM (739 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 11 2010, 12:07 AM Post #1 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
The discussion about orthography still hasn't cooled down. When we decided to change j to i before a consonant, I was genuinely sure that this was a big improvement. The reason for introducing i (deviat', desiat', videnie, konie, liubiti, riadko) instead of j (devjat', desjat', videnje, konje, ljubiti, rjadko) was primarily motivated by aesthetics: the abundancy of the letter j in Slovianski made it look like transliterated Cyrillic (or otherwise ugly), and many people didn't like it. ie was supposed to make it look "more friendly". Some influence from Slovioski and Novoslovienskij played a role, too. For previous discussion of this subject, see the following threads:
[čć] |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| iopq | Jun 11 2010, 02:07 AM Post #2 |
|
Administrator
|
I was originally supporting the j convention in the first place because it is unambiguous. But note that I also distinguished dje and die because I wrote dje and d'e so I felt that it is not confusing to write die only in the cases where I would d'e. But if we don't distinguish between the two I would never like writing die everywhere. On another note, words like more and pole end in -e so according to my declension tables they already take the soft declension (it's impossible for a noun to end in -e and not have the soft declension) without having to have an uglier морье form. It looks like part of the word лукоморье. |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Jun 11 2010, 06:35 AM Post #3 |
|
Working with people who speak one of five Slavic languages - and who work with each other - has often left me feeling like I have a multiple personality problem. Having recently added Polish speakers to our group of kolegi, has not made the situation any easier. Jan referenced in one of his earlier comments that he read at Slovknig my own comment that I was receiving more and more feedback that favoured using "J" treatment to words instead of "I". But it is interesting as to which words this convention should be used. All five speakers spell "five" as "piat'" Four speakers spell "videnie" as "videnie" - except Croatians, who spell it "videnje." "Gliadet" is more often spelled "gledet" and never "gljadet" "KEY" is often spelled either "kluč" or "ključ" - never "kliuč" "PULL" is always spelled "tjag-" and not "tiag-" I always have feedback that too many of the spellings with "-ia-" are Russian spellings, and why do we not spell these words with just "-e-" or "-i-" or "-a-" EXAMPLE: "TEN" - DESIAT (Russian) - versus "DESET" or "DESAT" (not Russian). In this example "DESJAT" would not IMO be very well accepted. In summary, the feedback I get is that "-j" should be used in some instances, but not in all instances - especially not in words where the spelling conforms to Russian pronunciations and ignores non-Russian pronuniciations (like "DESIAT" vs. "DESET").
|
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| pedza | Jun 11 2010, 07:39 AM Post #4 |
|
All South Slavs except Bulgarians do, not just Croats. ![]() Also, i don't like to use i after consonant, probably the ultimate example being Slovianski because I promptly pronounce that as SlovIJanski instead of Slovjanski. It also just looks unnatural for a Slavic language, at least from my perspective. |
| V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njego | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 11 2010, 07:56 AM Post #5 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
You know, the thing is that I wouldn't even mind distinguishing between d'e and dje if it weren't for Serbian Cyrillic, which offers only one possibility: дје. Unless we reintroduce ђе, but that doesn't solve the issue anyway, since we would have ђе/ће/ље/ње (vs. дје/тје/лје/нје), but still nothing for рје/сје/зје). Russian seems to have more possibilities (дэ/де/дье and да/дя/дья), but if Serbian can't express that distinction, should we really have it at all? Polish thearetically CAN express it (de/die/dzie/dje), but die exists only in transcriptions from Russian, while dje only in cases like odjechać). Otherwise, I suppose all languages have only two possiblities in normal cases: de and d'e.
Sure, but look at it from the other side: the root of морье and полье is морь- and поль-. The r and l can't be pronounced hard, while "more" and "pole" can and in case of a non-Russian even should. We don't have a rule that ль + е = ле just like ль + а = ля, otherwise we'd also end up with "видене". [čć] |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 11 2010, 08:20 AM Post #6 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Steeven, but how on Earth could such a system work? IMO you really can't have a system where there is no system at all. If you write piat and tjag, how is the difference pronounced? And how is it represented in Cyrillic? I surely hope you're not proposing пиат! As for piat/desat/tjag/gledat: all Slavic languages show a regular development from Proto-Slavic ę, although the final result is determined by conditions, and as natlangs do, there are always exceptions. But they all follow a predictable pattern. One of the assets of Slovianski is that it has a predictable pattern as well, and that's what makes it a lot easier for people. Slovio for example doesn't have that, and as a result, if you want to write something in Slovio, you have to look up every single word. Besides, if you pick one word from Russian, another from Slovak, another from BCS and another from Bulgarian, you get something close to Europanto, making it both unpredictable and inconsistent. |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| iopq | Jun 11 2010, 11:24 AM Post #7 |
|
Administrator
|
десять is also the Ukr. and Bel. forms but that's just the nature of the example the word rjad has representation in Czech and Slovak as well |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Jun 11 2010, 03:14 PM Post #8 |
|
Jan, I am not proposing a "system" per se. I am reporting what my experience has been in my communications with Slavic speakers from five different Slavic speaking countries. (I am currently putting together a collection of emails of my kolegi, which Andrej has asked to review) When these speakers write, they do not stop and analyse what the word-form "should be" based upon etymological or linguistic convention and consistency. The "seasoned" writer already has his or her own style of writing, unless they need to know a new word, in which case they can go to our internal dictionary or the Beta of our new internal translation engine to "get the common Interslavic word"; then they will often modify it to their own liking. Ultimately, there is a consistency that is created (best example is: "gliadet" - no one spells it in this Vostocxnij format - instead using "gledet". Indeed, similar constructions like "Piat" will usually be converted to "pet" or "piet" (Serbian ~ пет). I suspect "they" do not change "piat" to "pjat" because it is not spelled with a "j" in their own languages. I know you would like to have Slovianski work in a neat, concise and predictable manner; but the dynamics of its use among the different Slavic speakers will yield "what works", not "what should work". The question here might more prudently be: "Whether the dictionary should reflect 'what works' versus 'what should work'" Only time will tell. 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) i.e. -"will the people both accept & use it?"
|
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Jun 11 2010, 03:21 PM Post #9 |
|
BTW: I voted in favour of using the "J" (my personal preference!) :lol: |
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 11 2010, 03:59 PM Post #10 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Hm, I wouldn't mind taking a peek as well!
But then you missed my point, Steeven. "Gledet" is NOT consistent with "piat", in no way. "Gljadeti" is consistent with "pjat'", "gledet" is consistent with "pet". It's one way or the other.
And there you go. If "пет" corresponds with "pet", then what corresponds with "piet"?
Of course. Before you can check whether it works or not, people must first have something to work with. Otherwise it's just one big improvisation. Slovianski is supposed to be a whole set of tools that people can use in order to make themselves maximally understandable. You can't just add everything that people use, otherwise it will really end up like some kind of Europanto. It's all about two things: understandability and practicality. Therefore there MUST be a system. Users don't have to know or apply that system, what matters is that when they do, they will be understood best. Every word conveys information. If a Pole sees "gledeti", he will of course understand it, but he is also taught: "aha, so our ję becomes e", which is only confirmed when he sees "pet'". After that, he will know automatically that "piętno" becomes "petno" etc. In other words, ę > e and e > ja are equally okay, as long as they are applied consistently. We have chosen for ja as a means to disambiguate, because e and jat' become e in Slovianski as well. After all, "pet" could mean a hell of a lot of things for a Pole: pięć, pet, pięt, piec, piać, pęd... The funny thing is, however, that this makes Slovianski easier to understand, but harder to use. Because for the same Pole it would be very easy if all his e, ie, ia, io, i, ię, ę could all turn to e. [ćč] |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Jun 11 2010, 04:23 PM Post #11 |
|
Absolutely!
Of course, "пет" corresponds with "pet", but "piet" is used by Polish speakers not SR/HR speakers - and there is no need for Pole to convert "piet" to Cyrillic. ![]()
I agree completely. Again, I was posting my experiences with the language a la real-time use. We have an internal dictionary that reflects the "what work" words, and includes the various optional word-forms so that a "newbie" can have a better understanding of what s/he may read (thus, "pet" "piat'" and "piet" are included).
|
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Jun 11 2010, 05:47 PM Post #12 |
|
Also, I would imagine that the "dynanics" of spelling for my kolegi would change if we open an office in Kiev or Moscow. Then the Vostocxnij spelling forms would truly come into play. What fun! <_< |
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| pedza | Jun 24 2010, 10:09 PM Post #13 |
|
Well, shall we declare an 8:1 victory for the J option?
|
| V velikomu narodam geniju se gnezdo tkaje -- Vladika Petar II Petrovič Njego | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Jun 25 2010, 07:56 AM Post #14 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Hm, until recently it still was 8:0. But yes, the J option is the obvious winner. I have already implemented it on my site (except for the dictioniary, which is another can of worms). http://steen.free.fr/slovianski |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| « Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic » |







2:15 PM Jul 11