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| OTHER CONLANGS; Discussion about other conlangs | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 28 2010, 05:40 PM (4,238 Views) | |
| cxiril | Sep 1 2010, 06:26 PM Post #16 |
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Jane, ja želim izbegnuti probleme s glagolami jaki jesut: nesti, tegnuti itd. Nesti->nestuči? nestijuči? tegnuti->tegnuči? tegnijuči? tegneči? izbegnuti->izbegujuči? izbegavajuči? izbeguči? učiti->učijuči? učeči? učuči? Ale preto strogo pravilo tvorbe ot infinitiva: nestjuči, tegnutjuči, izbegnutjuči, učitjuči....Vsekda jednako pravilo. A dovolno intuitivno že razumetnjeno ot vsih. Ja ne volim unositi glosovne promene v korene slov. To ne je dobro za štučni jazik. Edited by cxiril, Sep 1 2010, 06:39 PM.
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| cxiril | Sep 1 2010, 06:38 PM Post #17 |
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I da, prostoslavjanski je kombinacija slovjanskog i slovioskog (medžuslavjanskog) s nemnogo novih elementov:) Ja ne hotem znova izumiteti slavjanski jazik...tolko najdeti lehkejšu/intuitivnejšu gramatiku. |
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| cxiril | Sep 1 2010, 06:53 PM Post #18 |
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Tutčas me muči genitiv ženskog roda množine. Ja stavil dva zakončenja: -av i -ji. " "Ja bil pogledatnjen ot tih ženav." (V hrvatskom: žen-a) "Ja zamrozil se od videnja tih kostji." (v hrvatskom_ kost-iju) Čo mislite ob tome? Ja bi htel izbegnuti dvoznačnost zakončenja imenicav. Preto -av radejšo ot -a... Edited by cxiril, Sep 1 2010, 07:07 PM.
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| cxiril | Sep 1 2010, 07:13 PM Post #19 |
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And I agree with Jan that pisal-nij, -nja, -njo would rather mean " was writeable" than "written". |
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| cxiril | Sep 2 2010, 08:06 AM Post #20 |
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Ili dobrejše -av i -ij? ženav, kostij, jednostij... Edited by cxiril, Sep 2 2010, 08:36 AM.
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 2 2010, 10:54 AM Post #21 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I wouldn't do that. Why -av? There isn't a single Slavic language that has -av. You don't make things easier by using endings that nobody has. If you really insist on having one ending for all genders, I'd use -ov. But then again, why would you if most Slavs have žen? Before starting a project of this type, always ask yourself a few questions: why? for whom? under what circumstances? Do you want to maximise understandability or ease of use. And if the latter, then for use when, where and by whom? Those questions are crucial, because the ideal Slavic interlanguage for American tourists would look completely different from the ideal Slavic language for inter-Slavic communication. Also, do you want the language to be learned/used by lots of people, or are you just doing it as a timepass? In the latter case you can of course do what you like and follow your own taste, in the former you'll have to think about other people as well. If you have that kind of questions sorted out, you won't need to worry much about endings anymore, because these things will attend to themselves. There's one thing you can take for granted: if a majority of Slavs have dom-ov and žen, then that's what is easiest to them. For those who are used to gender, cases, noun classes and the like, simplifications like ženav are actually a complication, because they are counter-intuitive. If, on the other hand, you intend to make things easy for Westerners, then you don't need to have gender and cases at all. Just take Bulgarian as an example, and Bob's your uncle. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 2 2010, 10:58 AM Post #22 |
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again, nesti is not a problem remember that the "real" verb is nes- and then you add things on top of it nesuczi is the correct form because it's nes- + uczi tegnuti has the form teg-n- so it's tegnuczi izbegnuti should also have iz-beg-n- so it would be izbegnuczi but I'd prefer the verb to just be izbegati for a iz-beg-a- root so the result would be izbegajuczi (it's a -je- declension verb) so there is really two pieces of information I'd like to have: root or infinitive (I can guess the root from the infinitive) one present tense form so if you say pisati / pisze I can say: "OK, the root is probably pis- or pis-a- because the infinitive looks that way, but based on the present tense form it's pis- and the declension is -je- because of the sz and because it ends in -e" so there you go, I would then say ja piszu, ti piszesz, on pisze, mi piszemo, vi piszete, oni piszut if it's a problem, I would rather eliminate the infinitive than eliminating the other 6 correct forms because Bg./Mk. don't even have the infinitive |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 2 2010, 12:29 PM Post #23 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Theoretically, you can have only one root: ja pisam, ja plakam, ja kovam. But the more you regularise the language like that, the larger the distance grows between you and your target audience. Some people who know pisati will understand you, others won't. That's why you need to decide first who your intended user and who your intended listener/reader is. You simply cannot expect a Slav to say "ja pisam" if all Slavic languages have "ja piš-something". However, if it's intended for an American tourist who is going to visit Central/Eastern Europe and who wants to learn 200-300 words of Slovianski first, then it's okay, because most people will understand him anyway. But then again, he might as well use the infinitive instead of the present tense.
Yeah, that's true. But OTOH a Bulgarian or Macedonian can always write Slovianski without using the infinitive, the way he's used to, and he will more or less be understood anyway. However, a person who is used to the infinitive will get in trouble. One of the recurring things I hear in auxlang discussions is that people take it for granted that you achieve simplification by not having something. I very much disagree with that approach. Taking the infinitive as an example: using it may be as hard for a person who isn't used to it, as not using it for a person who is. The same goes also for cases and the like. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 2 2010, 01:55 PM Post #24 |
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actually it would be ja piszam, ja placzam, ja kovam follow the Macedonian model of one real conjugation! and it's easy to write without the infinitive and cases Prosto je da piszam bez infinitiv i padeszi Edited by iopq, Sep 2 2010, 02:00 PM.
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 2 2010, 01:58 PM Post #25 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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And what would be the past tense of piszam and placzam, then? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 2 2010, 02:00 PM Post #26 |
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still pisal, again, the root is always pis- I guess I should say that Macedonian has 3 conjugations (e, je, i) but they all have the same endings |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| cxiril | Sep 2 2010, 06:04 PM Post #27 |
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A čo vi mislite ob novoslovjenske jazike ot Vojtjeha Merunke?: http://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/home |
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| Moraczewski | Sep 2 2010, 09:55 PM Post #28 |
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Things like that are very counter-intuitive for, say, Russian speakers, the ordinary ones, not linguistic pedants like Wolliger Mensch. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 3 2010, 04:17 AM Post #29 |
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I on tut bil, med-pivo pil |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| cxiril | Sep 3 2010, 04:32 PM Post #30 |
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"Med-pivo", hm, čo je to? Medovina? |
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2:16 PM Jul 11