Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti.
Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности.
Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit.

Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno.

Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community!
Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti:
Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности:
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
OTHER CONLANGS; Discussion about other conlangs
Topic Started: Feb 28 2010, 05:40 PM (4,238 Views)
cxiril

Jane, ja želim izbegnuti probleme s glagolami jaki jesut: nesti, tegnuti itd.
Nesti->nestuči? nestijuči?
tegnuti->tegnuči? tegnijuči? tegneči?
izbegnuti->izbegujuči? izbegavajuči? izbeguči?
učiti->učijuči? učeči? učuči?

Ale preto strogo pravilo tvorbe ot infinitiva: nestjuči, tegnutjuči, izbegnutjuči, učitjuči....Vsekda jednako pravilo. A dovolno intuitivno že razumetnjeno ot vsih.
Ja ne volim unositi glosovne promene v korene slov. To ne je dobro za štučni jazik.
Edited by cxiril, Sep 1 2010, 06:39 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cxiril

I da, prostoslavjanski je kombinacija slovjanskog i slovioskog (medžuslavjanskog) s nemnogo novih elementov:)
Ja ne hotem znova izumiteti slavjanski jazik...tolko najdeti lehkejšu/intuitivnejšu gramatiku.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cxiril

Tutčas me muči genitiv ženskog roda množine.
Ja stavil dva zakončenja: -av i -ji.
"
"Ja bil pogledatnjen ot tih ženav." (V hrvatskom: žen-a)
"Ja zamrozil se od videnja tih kostji." (v hrvatskom_ kost-iju)

Čo mislite ob tome?
Ja bi htel izbegnuti dvoznačnost zakončenja imenicav. Preto -av radejšo ot -a...
Edited by cxiril, Sep 1 2010, 07:07 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cxiril

And I agree with Jan that pisal-nij, -nja, -njo would rather mean " was writeable" than "written".
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cxiril

cxiril
Sep 1 2010, 06:53 PM
Tutčas me muči genitiv ženskog roda množine.
Ja stavil dva zakončenja: -av i -ji.
"
"Ja bil pogledatnjen ot tih ženav." (V hrvatskom: žen-a)
"Ja zamrozil se od videnja tih kostji." (v hrvatskom_ kost-iju)

Čo mislite ob tome?
Ja bi htel izbegnuti dvoznačnost zakončenja imenicav. Preto -av radejšo ot -a...
Ili dobrejše -av i -ij?
ženav, kostij, jednostij...
Edited by cxiril, Sep 2 2010, 08:36 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
I wouldn't do that. Why -av? There isn't a single Slavic language that has -av. You don't make things easier by using endings that nobody has. If you really insist on having one ending for all genders, I'd use -ov. But then again, why would you if most Slavs have žen?

Before starting a project of this type, always ask yourself a few questions: why? for whom? under what circumstances? Do you want to maximise understandability or ease of use. And if the latter, then for use when, where and by whom? Those questions are crucial, because the ideal Slavic interlanguage for American tourists would look completely different from the ideal Slavic language for inter-Slavic communication. Also, do you want the language to be learned/used by lots of people, or are you just doing it as a timepass? In the latter case you can of course do what you like and follow your own taste, in the former you'll have to think about other people as well. If you have that kind of questions sorted out, you won't need to worry much about endings anymore, because these things will attend to themselves.

There's one thing you can take for granted: if a majority of Slavs have dom-ov and žen, then that's what is easiest to them. For those who are used to gender, cases, noun classes and the like, simplifications like ženav are actually a complication, because they are counter-intuitive. If, on the other hand, you intend to make things easy for Westerners, then you don't need to have gender and cases at all. Just take Bulgarian as an example, and Bob's your uncle.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
again, nesti is not a problem
remember that the "real" verb is nes- and then you add things on top of it
nesuczi is the correct form because it's nes- + uczi
tegnuti has the form teg-n- so it's tegnuczi
izbegnuti should also have iz-beg-n- so it would be izbegnuczi but I'd prefer the verb to just be izbegati for a iz-beg-a- root so the result would be izbegajuczi (it's a -je- declension verb)

so there is really two pieces of information I'd like to have:
root or infinitive (I can guess the root from the infinitive)
one present tense form

so if you say pisati / pisze I can say:
"OK, the root is probably pis- or pis-a- because the infinitive looks that way, but based on the present tense form it's pis- and the declension is -je- because of the sz and because it ends in -e"
so there you go, I would then say ja piszu, ti piszesz, on pisze, mi piszemo, vi piszete, oni piszut

if it's a problem, I would rather eliminate the infinitive than eliminating the other 6 correct forms because Bg./Mk. don't even have the infinitive
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Theoretically, you can have only one root: ja pisam, ja plakam, ja kovam. But the more you regularise the language like that, the larger the distance grows between you and your target audience. Some people who know pisati will understand you, others won't. That's why you need to decide first who your intended user and who your intended listener/reader is. You simply cannot expect a Slav to say "ja pisam" if all Slavic languages have "ja piš-something". However, if it's intended for an American tourist who is going to visit Central/Eastern Europe and who wants to learn 200-300 words of Slovianski first, then it's okay, because most people will understand him anyway. But then again, he might as well use the infinitive instead of the present tense.

Quote:
 
if it's a problem, I would rather eliminate the infinitive than eliminating the other 6 correct forms because Bg./Mk. don't even have the infinitive

Yeah, that's true. But OTOH a Bulgarian or Macedonian can always write Slovianski without using the infinitive, the way he's used to, and he will more or less be understood anyway. However, a person who is used to the infinitive will get in trouble.

One of the recurring things I hear in auxlang discussions is that people take it for granted that you achieve simplification by not having something. I very much disagree with that approach. Taking the infinitive as an example: using it may be as hard for a person who isn't used to it, as not using it for a person who is. The same goes also for cases and the like.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
actually it would be ja piszam, ja placzam, ja kovam
follow the Macedonian model of one real conjugation!

and it's easy to write without the infinitive and cases
Prosto je da piszam bez infinitiv i padeszi
Edited by iopq, Sep 2 2010, 02:00 PM.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
And what would be the past tense of piszam and placzam, then?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
IJzeren Jan
Sep 2 2010, 01:58 PM
And what would be the past tense of piszam and placzam, then?
still pisal, again, the root is always pis-
I guess I should say that Macedonian has 3 conjugations (e, je, i) but they all have the same endings
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cxiril

A čo vi mislite ob novoslovjenske jazike ot Vojtjeha Merunke?:
http://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/home
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

iopq
Sep 2 2010, 01:55 PM
and it's easy to write without the infinitive and cases
Prosto je da piszam bez infinitiv i padeszi
Things like that are very counter-intuitive for, say, Russian speakers, the ordinary ones, not linguistic pedants like Wolliger Mensch.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
cxiril
Sep 2 2010, 06:04 PM
A čo vi mislite ob novoslovjenske jazike ot Vojtjeha Merunke?:
http://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/home
I on tut bil, med-pivo pil
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cxiril

"Med-pivo", hm, čo je to? Medovina?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Daľše predmety · Next Topic »
Add Reply