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OTHER CONLANGS; Discussion about other conlangs
Topic Started: Feb 28 2010, 05:40 PM (4,234 Views)
steeven
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This topic may be used to discuss or comment on "other" constructed or auxiliary languages (than Slovianski).

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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steeven
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I have moved VALDI's post regarding the INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY with respect to its parts that did not relate directly to the "TEST" of the SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY within the online INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY program, from the "...about the dictionary" topic" to here"

valdi
Feb 28 2010, 11:24 AM

What is INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY?
I saw on http://slovknig.wikia.com/ that Interslavic Dictionary uses Slovianski as one of the source languages.

Does it mean that INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY is another more slavic than dictionary of Slovianski?

Valdi...you already know the answers to most of your questions, because we have "discussed" these in private email as well as in GOOGLE WAVE with Andrej and Michal. But here is the update:
Originally, the INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY was the "Slovioski Dictionary" - which, originally was merely to be a slightly "more Slavic" version of Slovio. This changed a few months ago, when ANDREJ, MICHAL and I (Steeven) decided that Slovioski become a separate conlang with predominantly natural Slavic based vocabulary and grammar - but not 100%.
The name "Slovioski" then no longer was an appropriate name - and it was changed to "Interslavic" - which is the name my SR/HR kolegi suggested be used, about a year ago.

The actual INTERSLAVIC dictionary (not the Slovianski "TEST" version posted as of this date) uses a vocabulary based on the vocabulary from SLOVKNIG WIKI - these are words which are initially tested at SLOVKNIG - and where anyone has the opportunity to comment on. The most frequent commentators at SLOVKNIG are ANDREJ MORACZEWSKI, STEEVEN, POLONIAK - I believe you (VALDI) may have even commented there as well, as has JAN VAN STEENBERGEN. The Interslavic Dictionary also uses the Slovianski Dictionary words and even some of the Slovio words - if they can be readily understood - (Interslavic is NOT an exclusively "natural slavic language" conlang, as you know already). Finally, Interslavic uses occasional foreign words - but the preferred word form is the "Slavic word form" (np - Interslavic uses the word "zastava" for English/German word "flag" - unlike Sloviansk, which uses the word "flag")

The word "ZEMBULBA" is the current test word for the ENGLISH "POTATO".
Please see the TALK/DISCUSSION section of for the word POTATO, to follow the discussion that ANDREJ, POLONIAK and I have had to date.
If you have a word choice that you prefer different from ZEMBULBA, you are welcome to comment.

Ultimately, the SLOVKNIG WIKI vocabulary will become the basis for several separate dictionaries that will allow translation between INTERSLAVIC and all of the other main Slavic languages. Today, only ENGLISH-INTERSLAVIC-ENGLISH exists.
valdi
Feb 28 2010, 11:24 AM

Who are people who create it and where are clear principals to convert from Slovianski to Interslavic.

The INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY was originally created by me (Steeven), Michal Boravicka and Andrej Moraczewski. Changes to it are made primarily through the SLOVKNIG WIKI - or by the addition of words from the SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY.

INTERSLAVIC currently has a slightly different orthography than SLOVIANSKI - however, the margin of difference is smaller today, with the recent changes made to SLOVIANSKI.
valdi
Feb 28 2010, 11:24 AM

The only credible (to me) dictionary of Slovianski which is developed according to discussions on this forum is: http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/slovianski-english.html.
But it's possible that I'm  wrong.

Yup. That is the official Slovianski Dictionary.
The current "TEST" Slovianski Dictionary using the program structure of the INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY is only a TEST.

We have discussed ongoingly the possibility of merging SLOVIANSKI with INTERSLAVIC, which is always possible.

Right now - when the regular INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY is re-posted, you may distinguish between SLOVIANSKI WORDS and non-SLOVIANSKI words by the letter "s" in the far right hand column.

As far as the words in the SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY being "the only words" which can be used in writing SLOVIANSKI, I believe JAN VAN STEENBERGEN has commented that a writer can use any Slavic word when composing in Slovianski. Indeed, there are not sufficient number of words in the SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY to truly communicate at this time just using SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY words.

The INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY offers options to use "other" words - with the display telling you whether these words are "J" "V" or "Z"- Juzxni, Vostocxnij, Zapadni or a specific language form (PL, RU, SR, etc.) - or even a newly constructed word - such as "ponjerzxe"
valdi
Feb 28 2010, 11:24 AM

Quote:
 
(that is, it is ONLY the words in the Slovianski Dictionary, and none other)

Really ? In that wiki page I found a dictionary with the same name "Interslavic Dictionary": http://slovknig.wikia.com/wiki/Sentence
where is a word created according to rules of Slovio: slovogrupa or http://slovknig.wikia.com/wiki/Potato "zembulba" and others. All that words do not satisfy the principals of Slovianski.

As I noted in my comment to you at the "regarding the dictionary" thread - the TEST DICTIONARY is exclusively SLOVIANSKI WORDS.
The "Test" did not include words located anywhere else other than in that TEST DICTIONARY - so it was your choice to wander elsewhere in the internet and go outside of the boundaries of the test. That was your choice, but it is irrelevant to "the TEST."
valdi
Feb 28 2010, 11:24 AM

Why should I believe that the present VERSION of that dictionary is different. There are to many elments to follow them and understand the way Slovio--->Slovioski----> Interslavic--> ?????.
Valdi

The present VERSION of the "the TEST" is exactly what I stated it was - SLOVIANSKI DICTIONARY words only. Whether you believe that or not - just like whether you believe in GOD, BUDDHA or a TREE - is not for me or anyone else to be concerned with.

Thank you. B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Ethefor

Ja imam do vas prosbu, možete li mi objasniti kake ješče jesut jaziki medžuslovianske i kake imajut čerti? Ja uslušal čo slavio to jazik ktori premnogo soderžuje v ruskie slova i je ne sovjazanji z slovianskim tak kak glagolica? A što s interslavic, slovioski, rozumio, novoslovjenskij? Vse jesut sovjazne s Slovianskim? Ja ne do konca izrozumel što je nad napisane, že medžuslovianski je ini conlang od slovio i slovianski, ale upotrebja z slov z slovianskego jaziku?
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cxiril

Ja napisal specifikaciju novej narečja medžuslavjenskego jazika, ktorego ja imenoval prostoslovjanskim jazikom.
Prostoslovjanski jazik ne je novi samostalni jazik, no radejšo narečje štučnego slovianskego jazika, predstavitnjego na stranici http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/index.html.
Prostoslovjanski jazik je jedin ot mnogih predložilnjih oblika budučego medžuslavjanskego jazika ktori bi vsi Slavjani moželi govoriti i rozumeti. Vi ga preto možete smatrati ješče delatjučom inačicom predloženja medžuslavjanskego jazika.

Doltegnujte s:

http://matalab.freehostia.com/ProstoSlovjanskiJazik.pdf

Mene mnogo interesova čuti vaše misle.

KONTAKT
cxiril@gmail.com
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steeven
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Cool!
B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
cxiril
Aug 29 2010, 05:37 PM
Ja napisal specifikaciju novej narečja medžuslavjenskego jazika, ktorego ja imenoval prostoslovjanskim jazikom.
Prostoslovjanski jazik ne je novi samostalni jazik, no radejšo narečje štučnego slovianskego jazika, predstavitnjego na stranici http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/index.html.
Prostoslovjanski jazik je jedin ot mnogih predložilnjih oblika budučego medžuslavjanskego jazika ktori bi vsi Slavjani moželi govoriti i rozumeti. Vi ga preto možete smatrati ješče delatjučom inačicom predloženja medžuslavjanskego jazika.

Doltegnujte s:

http://matalab.freehostia.com/ProstoSlovjanskiJazik.pdf

Mene mnogo interesova čuti vaše misle.

KONTAKT
cxiril@gmail.com
interesting, how do you justify some word forms like mej?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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cxiril

iopq
Aug 29 2010, 11:08 PM
interesting, how do you justify some word forms like mej?
Well, there is no special justification for GEN of personal pronouns except it has seemed messy to me, so I decided to put some order and distinction between the cases. Therefore "menej" in GEN and "meno" in LOC.
However, it seems it sounds OK to natural slavic speakers?
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cxiril

OK. Ja izmenil specifikaciju malo.
Glovne izmene jesut:

-ego->eg

PARTICIPI (Glagolska prislova)

AKTIVNI PARTICIPI
Tutčasni aktivni particip: koren + "-tjuči"
Npr. delati->delatjuči, pisati->pisatjuči.

Prošli aktivni particip: koren + "-lvši"
Nprt. delati->delalvši, pisati->pisalvši, tegnuti->tegnulvši.

PASIVNI (TRPNI) PARTICIPI
Pasivni (trpni) particip: koren + "-tnjen"
Npr. delati->delatnjen, pisati->pisatnjen, tegnuti->tegnutnjen, dekovati->dekovatnjen.

GLAGOLSKA PRILAGASLOVA
Glagolska prilagaslova se tvorijut ot aktivneg i trpneg participa sa prilagaslovnim zakončenjem.
Npr.
pisati->pisatjuči->pisatjuči/pisatjuča/pisatjuče;
napisati->napisatnjen->napisatnjeni/napisatnjena/napisatnjeno

Primeri:
"Dodaj mi tu odvoritnjenu knigu!"
"Ja pročital knigu spisatnjenu ot tebej."
"To je ješče pisatjuča kniga, ona ne je zakončitnjena."

Vi možete doltegnuti znova ot: http://matalab.freehostia.com/ProstoSlovjanskiJazik.pdf
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iopq
Administrator
tegnul vszi just sounds like you were dragging fleas around ;)
I don't understand the obsession with the infinitive
the infinitive is actually a derivation of the root, not the root itself

it's just another form out of like a few dozen that you can make from the verb
if the root is dela- then all forms follow from that
infinitive adds -ti
past tense adds -l
passive participle adds -(e)n (in this case the fill e is not added because of the vowel)
etc.
why should 12 other forms add a t in them just because the infinitive has it?
and if it is acceptable to have delatnjen, why not delatl?

-ego to -eg is very BCS of you
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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cxiril

iopq
Aug 30 2010, 10:30 AM
tegnul vszi just sounds like you were dragging fleas around ;)
I don't understand the obsession with the infinitive
the infinitive is actually a derivation of the root, not the root itself

it's just another form out of like a few dozen that you can make from the verb
if the root is dela- then all forms follow from that
infinitive adds -ti
past tense adds -l
passive participle adds -(e)n (in this case the fill e is not added because of the vowel)
etc.
why should 12 other forms add a t in them just because the infinitive has it?
and if it is acceptable to have delatnjen, why not delatl?

-ego to -eg is very BCS of you
Ending -vši without -l (npr. delavši, hodavši, radivši, izmolivši) for past active participe acctually exists in Croatian/Serbian language.
Regarding -tnjen, well I have chosen it in order to avoid different rules regarding stem, cited from Slovianski:
"The past passive participle is created by adding -ni to the infinitive stem: delani „done”. However:
if the infinitive stem ends in a consonant or -i, -e- is inserted, thus giving -eni resp. -jeni (for example: nesti > neseni „carried”, govoriti > govorjeni „spoken”)
*-sjeni, *-zjeni, *-tjeni, *-djeni, *-stjeni, *-zdjeni become -šeni, -ženi, -čeni, -dženi, -ščeni, -ždženi
all verbs on -uti, as well as monosyllabic stems on -iti (those with a present tense stem ending in -j) have -ti instead of -ni"

This way, the rule is always the same and I consider this as simplification. And it has this -en that gives the sense of the partcipe meaning. At least I hope so :ermm:
Edited by cxiril, Aug 30 2010, 04:03 PM.
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cxiril

I think I will change -lvši to -lši. -l indicates past, while -ši indicates active participe.
So, delati->delalši, učiti->učilši. Učilši matematiku, on zaspal.
Does it sound OK to you?
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steeven
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cxiril
Aug 31 2010, 07:46 AM
I think I will change -lvši to -lši. -l indicates past, while -ši indicates active participe.
So, delati->delalši, učiti->učilši. Učilši matematiku, on zaspal.
Does it sound OK to you?
Well, it certainly sounds sensible to me.
In the latter-day Slovioski, we chose to form adjectives derived from verbs by using the 3rd person male past tense + "-nij, -nja, -njo & -nje" because it clearly showed the past tense form of the adjectives in other languages (thus making it clearer for new speakers):

pisati ~ pisalnij
to write ~ written
.....See many here

And we still use this today.

B)


Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
cxiril
Aug 31 2010, 07:46 AM
I think I will change -lvši to -lši. -l indicates past, while -ši indicates active participe.
So, delati->delalši, učiti->učilši. Učilši matematiku, on zaspal.
Does it sound OK to you?
I'd rather just use -vszi like uczivszi matematiku
in this case no simplification is needed because it's always -vszi and it is exactly how it appears in most Slavic languages
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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iopq
Administrator
steeven
Aug 31 2010, 03:07 PM
pisati ~ pisalnij
to write ~ written


pisalnij means "used for writing" in Russian, though, NOT written
pisalnij predmet means a pencil, not something that has something written on it
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
To a Pole, pisalnij would mean "writable". If it's supposed to mean "written", why not simple use pisani (or pisanij, if you insist on using Russian/Ukrainian -j), since that's what 100% of the Slavic languages do?

As for other participles, pisatjuči as a present active participle is sort of understandable, but it looks weird. Why not simply use pisajuči? BTW, do I understand correctly that you also want do use it for a verbal noun, like English uses "writing" as a noun as well?

As for -vši, yes, definitely pisavši and not pisalvši. If I'm not mistaken, -lši is used only after consonantal stems like vedlši, simplifying that to -vši in all cases wouldn't be much of a burden to anyone.

As far as I can see, Prostoslovianski looks very similar to Slovioski (including plurals like "dobrje" and the like). What exactly are the differences?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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