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Syllabic L and R; "Tolsti volk" or "tulsti vulk"?
Topic Started: Feb 25 2010, 12:40 AM (3,838 Views)
steeven
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Jarvi
Mar 18 2010, 11:43 AM
wannabeme
Mar 18 2010, 08:54 AM
And somebody said only Moreno is in chat from S.S. brach. Not true, I am also everyday in skype and participate in chat. My name is the same as here "wannabeme20".

Oh no, sorry, I meant that Moreno is the only one in the chat from Steeven Radzikovski colleagues - who initially rised the question about -ul-. However, I don't know who suggested -ul- first, it was not Moreno.

FOR THE RECORD:

the subject of "-UL-" arose over the question about what SECONDARY (Level 2) word should be used for English word "LIGHTNING".
The full discussion can be found at SLOVKNIG...at: HERE

Level 1 word was agreed to be: "bleskavica"

One synonym Level 2 word was suggested to originally be "MOLNIA"; however, my kolegi from SR/HR suggested that because the majority of speakers did not use O or OL JUST for this word - that a compromise word: "MULNIA" be used instead - because all of the Southern Slavic languages used "U".
The discussion was, however, ONLY concerning "M*LNIA".
Because of Slovianski phonology priniciples, I believe JAN then proposed to change all -OL- words to -UL- ... and the controversy then ensued.

("Perun" was also added as a SYNONYM for "Lightning" a la Polski - and in order to preserve the Slavic tradition a la "Vojta" and his Novoslovianski use of old Slavic word forms)

As I noted in one of my earlier posts here, I am not offering any more suggestions on this specific subject. I write this post, only to clarify from where I recall this current "question" arose.
Blago te!

:)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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Silmethule
Mar 17 2010, 08:46 AM
Quote:
 
no, it means the "u" vowel that does not count towards the total count of the syllables, as in a non-syllabic "u" also known as a "semi-vowel"
Ĺ‚ is a consonant, a so-called "approximant"

in a lot of languages approximants are at the beginning of a syllable and semi-vowels are at the end of a syllable
Russian: я - [ja] but чай - [ʧai̯]
English: wow - [waĘŠĚŻ]


And some people write Polish "miał" as ['mʲjau̯] and Polish "ładna" as ['wadna] while other write the first one as ['mʲjaw]. And still both of "ł's" are pronounced identically. I still don't see ANY difference in pronounciation, only typographic and, let's call it that way, "phonological", [u̯] is used for the same as [w] sound, but only in position of second part of diphtong. So still [vɔwk] and [vɔu̯k] mean the same thing.

Am I wrong?

they're not the same phonetically, but the same phonologically
you can use whatever symbols you want in phonological transcription, but it makes sense to use [uĚŻ] in phonetic transcription

if you're writing in phonological transcription, you enclose the word in slashes like so:
/wowk/

then I wouldn't argue about it
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
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But WHAT IS phonetical difference? For me this is the same sound, no difference in pronouncing it.
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iopq
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one is a consonant, one is a vowel
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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Presuming this is the "official" announcement and protocol organ for Slovianski, what is the official vote, decision?

"-UL-"
"-OL-"
"-U-"
"-O-"
"NOTHING"


:D
:blink:
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Silmethule
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Quote:
 
one is a consonant, one is a vowel


Really? Then what is the difference between consonant and vowel? What is definition of vowel and consonant, so you can say that [uĚŻ] is vowel and [w] is consonant?
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iopq
Administrator
Silmethule
Mar 22 2010, 09:00 AM
Quote:
 
one is a consonant, one is a vowel


Really? Then what is the difference between consonant and vowel? What is definition of vowel and consonant, so you can say that [uĚŻ] is vowel and [w] is consonant?

it's the same difference as and [j]
i is a vowel, j is a consonant
a consonant is basically much higher (or closer, if you will) than a vowel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_vowel
look at the top row, the top vowels are i and u, and if you made a row above that it would say j and w right above those
Romanian has also an "e" semi-vowel as in "dragostea" and there is no corresponding consonant to it because e is a mid-high vowel

btw, note that in most Slavic languages the word czaj is actually pronounced with a vowel at the end (a non-syllabic one), but jabolko is pronounced with a consonant at the beginning so that could definitely be a source of confusion since they are both perceived as a /j/ phoneme
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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Presuming this is the "official" announcement and protocol organ for Slovianski, what is the official vote, decision?

"-UL-"
"-OL-"
"-U-"
"-O-"
"NOTHING"


:D
:blink:
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
I can only speak for myself that I will continue to use -ol- everywhere
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Well, official... I prefered -UL- myself. I had to get used to it in the beginning, but then got somehow attached to it. But I can see that most arguments and opinions presented here point in the direction of -OL- after all. I also got some input from other Serbs and Croats, and what it all boils down to is that -OL- isn't really a problem for them either. So I have changed every occurence of syllabic -L- > -UL- back to -OL- on my pages, and that should be the end of this discussion, as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway, let's not make this a bigger issue than it actually is. The average short text in Slovianski will hardly be affected, if at all. I think the best we can do is concentrate our efforts on vocabulary creation, and discussing very elementary words (like "must", "can" and the like) if necessary, because their impact is a hundred times bigger.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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steeven
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10-4


B)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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