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| Syllabic L and R; "Tolsti volk" or "tulsti vulk"? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 25 2010, 12:40 AM (3,838 Views) | |
| steeven | Mar 18 2010, 03:26 PM Post #91 |
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FOR THE RECORD: the subject of "-UL-" arose over the question about what SECONDARY (Level 2) word should be used for English word "LIGHTNING". The full discussion can be found at SLOVKNIG...at: HERE Level 1 word was agreed to be: "bleskavica" One synonym Level 2 word was suggested to originally be "MOLNIA"; however, my kolegi from SR/HR suggested that because the majority of speakers did not use O or OL JUST for this word - that a compromise word: "MULNIA" be used instead - because all of the Southern Slavic languages used "U". The discussion was, however, ONLY concerning "M*LNIA". Because of Slovianski phonology priniciples, I believe JAN then proposed to change all -OL- words to -UL- ... and the controversy then ensued. ("Perun" was also added as a SYNONYM for "Lightning" a la Polski - and in order to preserve the Slavic tradition a la "Vojta" and his Novoslovianski use of old Slavic word forms) As I noted in one of my earlier posts here, I am not offering any more suggestions on this specific subject. I write this post, only to clarify from where I recall this current "question" arose. Blago te!
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Mar 19 2010, 02:44 AM Post #92 |
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they're not the same phonetically, but the same phonologically you can use whatever symbols you want in phonological transcription, but it makes sense to use [uĚŻ] in phonetic transcription if you're writing in phonological transcription, you enclose the word in slashes like so: /wowk/ then I wouldn't argue about it |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Silmethule | Mar 19 2010, 01:50 PM Post #93 |
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But WHAT IS phonetical difference? For me this is the same sound, no difference in pronouncing it. |
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| iopq | Mar 22 2010, 04:40 AM Post #94 |
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one is a consonant, one is a vowel |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| steeven | Mar 22 2010, 04:10 PM Post #95 |
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Presuming this is the "official" announcement and protocol organ for Slovianski, what is the official vote, decision? "-UL-" "-OL-" "-U-" "-O-" "NOTHING"
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| Silmethule | Mar 22 2010, 05:00 PM Post #96 |
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Really? Then what is the difference between consonant and vowel? What is definition of vowel and consonant, so you can say that [uĚŻ] is vowel and [w] is consonant? |
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| iopq | Mar 23 2010, 04:08 AM Post #97 |
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it's the same difference as and [j] i is a vowel, j is a consonant a consonant is basically much higher (or closer, if you will) than a vowel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close_vowel look at the top row, the top vowels are i and u, and if you made a row above that it would say j and w right above those Romanian has also an "e" semi-vowel as in "dragostea" and there is no corresponding consonant to it because e is a mid-high vowel btw, note that in most Slavic languages the word czaj is actually pronounced with a vowel at the end (a non-syllabic one), but jabolko is pronounced with a consonant at the beginning so that could definitely be a source of confusion since they are both perceived as a /j/ phoneme |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| steeven | Mar 23 2010, 02:50 PM Post #98 |
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Presuming this is the "official" announcement and protocol organ for Slovianski, what is the official vote, decision? "-UL-" "-OL-" "-U-" "-O-" "NOTHING"
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Mar 23 2010, 04:05 PM Post #99 |
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I can only speak for myself that I will continue to use -ol- everywhere |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Mar 23 2010, 04:22 PM Post #100 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, official... I prefered -UL- myself. I had to get used to it in the beginning, but then got somehow attached to it. But I can see that most arguments and opinions presented here point in the direction of -OL- after all. I also got some input from other Serbs and Croats, and what it all boils down to is that -OL- isn't really a problem for them either. So I have changed every occurence of syllabic -L- > -UL- back to -OL- on my pages, and that should be the end of this discussion, as far as I'm concerned. Anyway, let's not make this a bigger issue than it actually is. The average short text in Slovianski will hardly be affected, if at all. I think the best we can do is concentrate our efforts on vocabulary creation, and discussing very elementary words (like "must", "can" and the like) if necessary, because their impact is a hundred times bigger. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Mar 23 2010, 05:10 PM Post #101 |
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10-4
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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