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Syllabic L and R; "Tolsti volk" or "tulsti vulk"?
Topic Started: Feb 25 2010, 12:40 AM (3,842 Views)
iopq
Administrator
I think tolsti is just as understandable as tlusti or tusti
it's the shorter words like vuk/volk that are harder

I also feel like dolgi/volk/polni is a much easier sell
it's very clear where these forms come from (Slovenian, Macedonian, East Slavic, some Polish forms) and they are consistent with an -o- fill vowel
I am not at all surprised that Polish has a form like pelny because Polish has an -e- fill vowel
so I would not be surprised if Slovianski used -o- more frequently
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Mar 9 2010, 02:53 PM

Quote:
 
Please, how are these NS words in Slovianski and Slovioski?

d‘lgij, v‘lk, p‘lnij, p‘rst, m‘rtvij

Dulgi, vulk, pulni, perst', mertvi. Syllabic R is not the issue here, it's only about syllabic L.


The old Slovioski dictionary spelled these words as:

"DOLGIJ, VOLK, POLNIJ, PERST and MERTVIJ"

The new INTERSLAVIC DICTIONARY - which merges Slovianski, Slovioski and Slovio into one combined Natural and Schematic Slavic Dictionary, spells these words as follows:

"DULGIJ, DULGI, VULK, PULNIJ, PULNI, PERST, PERST' and MERTVIJ, MERTVI"

B)

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Moraczewski
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iopq
Mar 10 2010, 07:18 AM
I think tolsti is just as understandable as tlusti or tusti
it's the shorter words like vuk/volk that are harder

For -ol- speakers of course it's equal. But for -u- speakers -ol- can be absolutely unclear.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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that's only sztokavski speakers, -ol- speakers are in the majority
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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I dont know, today i got the feeling that pulni dulgi sounds good to me.
It seems it was only a matter of getting used to it.
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iopq
Administrator
it honestly sounds like a west-slavic form of -ol- that became -ul-
it doesn't sound like a natural reflex like slunce or solnce
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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wannabeme
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iopq
Mar 13 2010, 03:40 AM
it honestly sounds like a west-slavic form of -ol- that became -ul-
it doesn't sound like a natural reflex like slunce or solnce

When I asked my russian fiancee, which of fallowing words are the most understandable:

слунце, сулнце, соунце

she answered too that slunce is not understandable, sulnce is akward, and sounce sounds good.

Well I can suggest to let use SOLNCE along.
It doesnt sound so strange for BCS spaekers. After all Serbians are used to Macedonians and Croatians to Slovenians. Only Bosnia is isolated but who cares. We Bosnians are inteligent people , we can adjust to OL too :)

I dont think OL can heavely influence the understanding of slovianski for BCS spaekers.
Thare are more other things which could make it more difficult to understand slovianski.
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steeven
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wannabeme
Mar 13 2010, 06:13 AM
...she answered too that slunce is not understandable, sulnce is akward, and sounce sounds good.

Well I can suggest to let use SOLNCE alone.
It doesn't sound so strange for BCS spaekers. After all Serbians are used to Macedonians and Croatians to Slovenians. Only Bosnia is isolated but who cares. We Bosnians are inteligent people , we can adjust to OL too :)

I dont think OL can heavely influence the understanding of slovianski for BCS speakers.
Thare are more other things which could make it more difficult to understand slovianski.


My suggestion and preference has been all along that there is no true valid reason to follow "one form" for all "related word forms" - that, instead, some words are best written in "-OL-" form and others in "-UL-" form. Thus:

"SOLNCE"
and
"VULK"

There is no reason to force engineering principles "across the board" - tj: "for every word" - versus "good sounding word forms".
That is what I have found to be the case now, after 2 years of working with my kolegi on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.

I always remember HELLERICK's axiom for his ROZUMIO:

"The language should not force its users to speak worse than they can."

ROZUMIO

:P
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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wannabeme
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Quote:
 
My suggestion and preference has been all along that there is no true valid reason to follow "one form" for all "related word forms" - that, instead, some words are best written in "-OL-" form and others in "-UL-" form. Thus:

"SOLNCE"
and
"VULK"



What is the purpose of having both OL and UL?
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iopq
Administrator
in Russian the forms are solnce and volk and I would say making them say "solnce" and "vulk" is making them speak worse than they already can
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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iopq
Mar 13 2010, 08:23 PM
in Russian the forms are solnce and volk and I would say making them say "solnce" and "vulk" is making them speak worse than they already can

Igor,
Well, "making Russians say "solnce" and "vulk" may make them speak worse than they already can."
But then making Poles or Slovenians or Ukrainians to say "sulnce" and "vulk" may be even worse to them!!
My point is that to approach this from an engineer's standpoint of ALL or NOTHING in changing similar word forms does not take into account what words "the people" might choose otherwise.
"Why must everything be just "-OL" or just "-UL-"?
The arguments that you and Jan have given are not arguments that would withstand a test in a court of public opinion, IMHO.

More than a week ago, I took a poll of my company's 50+ kolegi
(who, I grant, may already be prejudiced by using Slovioski for so long .... but, the results are interesting. ALL of the votes are NOT in yet, but 37 have responded as of today:)

The poll asked which spellings do you prefer for the following three words:

FULL - PELN-IJ, PLN-IJ, POLN-IJ, PULN-IJ, PUN-IJ
SUN - SLNCE, SLONCE, SOLNCE, SONCE, SLUNCE, SULNCE, SUNCE
WOLF - VELK, VILK, VLK, VLOK, VLUK, VOLK, VOK, VUK, VULK


...and the winners are:
(56 people polled; responses from 37)

FULL
- 21 VOTES = PLNIJ
- 9 VOTES = POLNIJ
- 7 VOTES = PULNIJ

SUN
- 14 VOTES = SOLNCE
- 11 VOTES = SLONCE
- 8 VOTES = SONCE
- 4 VOTES = SUNCE

WOLF
- 17 = VLK
- 12 = VUK
- 8 = VULK

RESULTS:
for "FULL" a majority voted for "NO VOWEL" whatsoever
for "WOLF" slightly less than majority voted for "NO VOWEL" also.

This seems to be the TRUE COMPROMISE, because without the VOWEL, one may pronounce these words with a "E" "I" "O" or "U".

for "SUN" the greater number of votes was for the "Letter O" ... with the most votes for "SOLNCE", which I believe was selected because of the LATIN "SOL" (this had been a discussion among my kolegi several weeks ago also, and many chose the "OL" form because they already knew the Latin word "SOL".

The POLL was a BLIND POLL - so I do not know from which COUNTRIES the votes came (tj: CZ, HR, SK, SR or US).

So, why not choose the "NO VOWEL" option for these words?

PLN-
SLNCE
VLK

Then neither IGOR's Russians nor anyone else will be forced to speak worse than they already speak!! They can make their vowels different each time!!! (in their own minds)

:D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Moraczewski
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Nothing surprising. If you have Croatian and Czech speakers, it is obvious that most of them favour -l- solution. The same if we make the poll among mostly Russian speakers, -ol- will win.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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steeven
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Jarvi
Mar 14 2010, 04:04 AM
Nothing surprising. If you have Croatian and Czech speakers, it is obvious that most of them favour -l- solution. The same if we make the poll among mostly Russian speakers, -ol- will win.

Not really... I could understand this if these were exclusively CZ and SK speakers.
But for both SR and HR speakers these words all use the letter "U":
SUN is: "SUNCE"
WOLF is: "VUK"
FULL is: "PUN"

These speakers are not looking at language as engineers.
They are looking at language as a personal choice of what works best.
Clearly, because of the differences, it is not prudent to pick one version over another. Here the best decision is very clear:
They chose the "no VOWEL" option, because it is absolutely the best compromise among all of the Slavic languages.
Indeed, that the SR/HR speakers voted in all cases to INCLUDE the letter "L" - where their own native tongue does not use it - clearly shows IMO that they are not as prejudiced as many here in this forum are to absolute engineering principles.

Using engineering principles as the method for creating vocabulary is, indeed, contrary to the stated "Design Criteria for Slovianski":

"The primary purpose of Slovianski is maximum intelligibility for all Slavs. Slovianski achieves this goal by incorporating the commonalities of the living Slavic languages. ... When commonalities are absent or less obvious, we build a compromise...."

Clearly, VLK, PLN and SLNCE are the best compromise for maximum intelligibility for all Slavs. Engineering be damned! :o
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
1. Why does it have to be the same vowel?
South and East branches ALWAYS have the same vowel, why would it be different in slovianski?

2. What about влк?
We'd have to add a new vowel л because влк actually has two consonants and the л is acting as a vowel
to speakers without this vowel it sounds like вълк or влък (which is another vowel we don't have)
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Steeven
 
My suggestion and preference has been all along that there is no true valid reason to follow "one form" for all "related word forms" - that, instead, some words are best written in "-OL-" form and others in "-UL-" form. Thus:

"SOLNCE"
and
"VULK"

There is no reason to force engineering principles "across the board" - tj: "for every word" - versus "good sounding word forms".


Here I have to disagree. There is a perfectly valid reason for following "one form for all related word forms". Take Slovio as an example. Whenever Polish has -RO/LO-, East Slavic has -ORO/OLO- and South Slavic/Czech/Slovak has -RA/LA-, Slovianski has -RO/LO-, whereas Slovio can have anything: KOROVA, GLOS, ZLATO. Sure, it's a way of building a compromise, but it's a bad one, because even if you know ALL Slavic language, you can never guess which forms is the right one. Ergo: every single word has to be learned. By using one form, you make things predictable.

That doesn't mean we can't have both -UL- and -OL-, but then we should define clearly when each form occurs.

I don't really understand your issue with engineering. If you build a house, you don't just buy stones and mortar and start building. You must know in advance what kind of stones you are going to use, and why, where the doors and the windows are going to be, how many floors there should be, what you are going to do to make sure that the whole thing won't collapse, you have be sure that the stoles will fit, etc. For that, there must be a plan first.

Steeven
 
Clearly, VLK, PLN and SLNCE are the best compromise for maximum intelligibility for all Slavs.  Engineering be damned! :o


Frankly, I can't see what this has to do with engineering. This is merely a matter of making a different choice. "Good sounding word forms" are something completely subjective! Besides, we have to accept the fact that Slovianski has its own internal logic as well.

Igor is right: Slovianski generally uses o as a fill vowel, so from that point of view, using -OL- would be the most logical solution. However, it is not obvious to everybody that the O in POLNI is actually a fill vowel at all. Most of us feel -UL- is kinda awkward, but like Dražen said, it's understandable to everybody and something one can easily get used to.

As for using syllabic L:

It's true that this would change Slovianski phonology by adding an extra phoneme. But it is doable. HOWEVER, there is no reason at all to have syllabic L and not to have syllabic R. If we should go for that solution, we can't avoid having the latter as well:

L: bavlna, dlg, dlžni, dlgi, prodlžati, kadlb, klbasa, mlčati, mlviti, natlknuti sia, plni, slnce, slnečni, slza, tlmačiti, tlsti, žlv, žlti, plk, stlp, hlm, vlk.<br>
R: bršč, grb, grdi, grlo, grnec, grnuti, grst', grtan', hrt, krčiti, krčma, krma, krmiti, mrkov, mrtvi, mrznuti, trg, trgovati, brzo.

What does it look like in Cyrillic?

Л: бавлна, длг, длжни, длги, продлжати, кадлб, клбаса, млчати, млвити, натлкнути ся, плни, слнце, слнечни, слза, тлмачити, тлсти, жлв, жлти, плк, стлп, хлм, влк.
Р: бршч, грб, грди, грло, грнец, грнути, грсть, гртань, хрт, крчити, крчма, крма, крмити, мрков, мртви, мрзнути, трг, трговати, брзо.

That looks a bit more awkward, I think, because Cyrillic has no syllabic L. In Cyrillic, a hard sign would obviously be the best choice, but our Cyrillic doesn't have one. Besides, how to represent it in Latinica? The apostrophe is already taken, and other non-alphabetic characters would give the language a way too artificial look.

Another disadvantage of syllabic R/L is that it might make Slovianski a bit less "friendly" for non-Slavs, for whom SLNCE looks like an inpronounceable consonant cluster.

But still, it can be considered. I'm only wondering: is this solution REALLY that much better than -UL-? It is really worth the effort of changing everything once again? Besides, Slovianski has something between 50 and 100 users at the moment. We can't constantly keep telling them to forget what they have already learned!
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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