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Syllabic L and R; "Tolsti volk" or "tulsti vulk"?
Topic Started: Feb 25 2010, 12:40 AM (3,843 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
(From the Slovianski in the press thread)

iopq
 
-ul- is not South Savic it's only a mix of Serbian with Western Slavic
it would be more South Slavic if it were -ou- as in douzsen, vouk, etc.


Steeven
 
Ah!  Yes.
Well, my reference to -ul- actually goes back to my discussion with JARVI at the Slovknig Wiki "word selection" site.  At point was the word LIGHTNING - where Russian word is "MOLNIA" versus HR/CR "MUNIA" (while the rest of the languages use something very different).

My kolegi suggested a compromise optional word of "MULNIA"

Ultimately, Team Slovianski suggested a COMPLETE change of all -OL- words (DOLŽEN, POLNI) to -UL- (DULŽEN, PULNI ....).  I noted earlier that I do not personally care whether these words are spelled -U- or -OL- or -UL-.


wannabeme
 
Well I dont realy know what would better sound for Southslavs -UL or -LU

For me personaly -LU sounds more naturaly, after all -LU is oldserbian feature.
SLUNCE, DLUGI, DLUŽEN. After that L was vocalized.
But something in me dislikes SULNCE, DULGI, DULŽEN ... fuuuu... ugly.

So would say wether SOLNCE or SLUNCE but please not SULNCE.

After all
-LU
-RO
-LE

slunce, krolj, mleko

sounds super :)


iopq
 
for *sъlnьсе I would prefer slunce over sulnce
1. slunce exists in Czech
2. Polish is słońce

for *dьlgь dlug is also better than dulg:
1. again it's the exact czech form
2. Polish has dɫug

do whatever you want with *vьlkъ in that case since it doesn't follow the same pattern...


gossips
 
Well, sounce, douzsen, vouk is much more understandable for me, than slunce, dluzsen, vluk, which I don't understand at all  :huh:


It looks like not everybody is happy with the -UL- solution after all. Neither am I, for that matter. In most cases it works fine, but dulg looks kind of awkward to me as well.

For a Czech or Slovak, I guess there won't be much of a difference between LU and -UL-.
For a Serbian or Croat, it won't matter much either, as both solutions are equally close to -U-.
The East Slavs use -OL-. Wouldn't dlug and slunce be much further away from what they are used to?
In Polish, the choice for -LU-, -EL-, -LO-, -IL-, -OL- is conditioned by the surrounding consonants, mostly by the preceding one. Dlug and slunce would be fine for a Pole, but pluni and vluk wouldn't even be understandable anymore. So just -LU- wouldn't be an option.

Theoretically, we might consider such an option: -LU- after a hard dental/alveolar consonant, otherwise -UL-. What we would get then is: bavulna, dlug, dlugi, kulbasa, mulčati, mulviti, pulni, slunce, sluza, tlusti, vulk, žulti.

That solution would take care of the issue, I think. Only sluza somehow doesn't seem to fit.
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gossips
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Quote:
 
The East Slavs use -OL-. Wouldn't dlug and slunce be much further away from what they are used to?

Yes, it would. I cant recognize it as долг and солнце, when i look at it.

What's about -ou- variant?
Vila matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
gossips
Mar 6 2010, 10:58 AM
What's about -ou- variant?

I'm afraid that won't really work, for various reasons. By cutting out the L it comes really hard for Poles to recognise, and I suppose the same might go for Czechs and Slovaks. Doug and vouk wouldn't ring a bell any more than dug or vuk would.
It would also have a negative impact on phonotactics. Slovianski doesn't have any diphthongs, so unless we introduce one for this particular case, we would end up with an extra syllable: do-ug. Also, I'm not sure how -OU- would work in Cyrillic.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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:blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:
:o :o :o :o

I speak one language exceptionally well.
I speak three others reasonably well.
I speak another four passably (I can be understood)
I can play the piano
I can ski and snowboard

But I cannot understand where we now are with respect to -UL- -OL- etc.

:ph43r:
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
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I think -ol- is the only solution that is acceptable for all of the words UNLESS we start going "hmm here we should write слунце and here we should write доўг" which complicates things
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I'm not so sure. If DLUG isn't understandable for the DOLG speakers, then we may assume that DOLG isn't understandable for the DLUG speakers either. In other words, if -LU- is not an option, then -OL- is not an option either.

I'm starting to believe we better stick to -UL-. From the variety of solutions occuring in the natural languages (-L-, -U-, -OL-, -EL-, -IL-, -L"-), -UL- is quite obviously the most "central" soltuion, i.e. it is the only solution that contains an element of every natural solution in the same slot. It may not be the most elegant solution, but from the point of view of understandability it seems to be the winner anyway.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Moraczewski
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Of course, there is something in me that dislikes "ul" because it is actually unnatural, but I can overcome it - because "vluk" and "pluni" is much worse.
So, for me -ul- is really the most reasonable decision.
"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831.

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gossips
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Quote:
 
is quite obviously the most "central" soltuion


Well, I know, how you guys dislike such a zsrakulski solutions, but -ul- isn't the only unnatural middle option, there is another one -olu-

bavoluna
dolug
dolugi
dolugost'
dolužiti
dolužni
dolužnost'
izpoluniati
izpoluniti
kadolub
kolubasa
molučanie
molučati
moluviti
napoluniti
natoluknuti se
podolug
premoluviati
premoluviti
prodolužati
prodolužiti
polukovnik
poluni
poluniti
poluno
solunce
solunečni
soluza
tolumačiti
tolupa
tolusti
upolunomočeni
upolunomočiti
upolunomočovati
vdoluž
voluk
volukolak
voluna
zapoluniati
zapoluniti
žoluč
žoluti
Vila matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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Silmethule
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It's completely illogical, captain, but I somehow like this solution.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
gossips
 
Well, I know, how you guys dislike such a zsrakulski solutions, but -ul- isn't the only unnatural middle option, there is another one -olu-

Not exactly pleasing to the eye, IMO. And, it's creating two syllables where no language ever has more than one. No, I'm afraid this won't enhance understandability at all.

I should add that -UL- is not unnatural, it's just rare. Polish has, for example, pułk, although it's not impossible that this came about as a spelling mistake for "półk". Polish also has żółty and żółw, which is pronounced exactly like that. BTW, a very common spelling error in Polish is that people write żułty. I would be very surprised if other languages hadn't -UL- in dialects as well. From that point of view Slovianski can have PULK, ŽULTI and ŽULV without introducing unnaturality.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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-ul- is not exactly pleasing to the eye because Polish spells these words most of the time with ó, not u
I could actually reason that it is a vote for -ol- because Polish ó corresponds to Slovianski o consistently
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
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For a Pole, in these cases (with -ół-) both forms are understandable, and you're, IMO, right. In this case Polish vote would go for -ol-, but in Polish ClC evolved so many different ways, that we can't count Polish as voting for any particular solution.

As I said before, however -olu- looks strange, makes 2 syllables and is ugly, it is perfectly understandable for me (sometimes even more understandable than -ul-). And don't know what to think about it... :P
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Maybe it's just me, but when I see "žoluti", I'd rather associate it with "gold" than with "yellow".

BTW, I've never said that the Polish vote goes to -UL-. As far as I'm concerned, Polish abstains in this matter. All I was trying to say is that -UL- is not completely unattested, although I can't think of any other example than PUŁK right now.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Vojta
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IJzeren Jan
Mar 7 2010, 07:30 PM
BTW, I've never said that the Polish vote goes to -UL-. As far as I'm concerned, Polish abstains in this matter. All I was trying to say is that -UL- is not completely unattested, although I can't think of any other example than PUŁK right now.

Hi,

Czech and Slovak has -lu/lo/lou- and sometimes keeps syllabitic -l- ad -r- in original form:

tlust, dlouh, vlk, pln, prst, mrtv, ...

Slovenian, Serbian and Croatian (Bulgarian in similar way too) has either -u- or also keeps syllabitic -l- and -r-:

dugi, vuk, puni, prst, mrtav, ...

This is common for non-lechitic western and all southern languages. This is why I think, that it is not easy to find exactly one rule how to replace -ъr/rъ- and -ъl/lъ-

Please, how are these NS words in Slovianski and Slovioski?

dlgij, vlk, plnij, prst, mrtvij

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Vojta
 
Czech and Slovak has -lu/lo/lou- and sometimes keeps syllabitic -l- ad -r- in original form:

tlust�, dlouh�, vlk, pln�, prst, mrtv�, ...

Yes, but still, -LU- is a typical West-Slavic phenomenon. Besides, it happens only after T, D, S, Z.

Quote:
 
This is common for non-lechitic western and all southern languages. This is why I think, that it is not easy to find exactly one rule how to replace -ъr/rъ- and -ъl/lъ-

Well, if -LU- is not understandable to the -OL- speakers, we may assume that -OL- isn't understandable for the -LU- speakers either. Ergo, both forms are inacceptable. -UL- may never win a beauty contest, but the way I see it, it's the only serious option we have.

Quote:
 
Please, how are these NS words in Slovianski and Slovioski?

d�lgij, v�lk, p�lnij, p�rst, m�rtvij

Dulgi, vulk, pulni, perst', mertvi. Syllabic R is not the issue here, it's only about syllabic L.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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