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Syllabic L and R; "Tolsti volk" or "tulsti vulk"?
Topic Started: Feb 25 2010, 12:40 AM (3,844 Views)
Moraczewski
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Vojta, your solution with leaving strong jers is nice, but not practical for auxlang, unfortunately. Two different apostrophes are hard to type; in cyrillic only Russian has two jers, Ukrainian only soft, Bulgarian only hard and Serbian and Macedonian have none.

I must admit that it is not very good that the language follows the restrictions of orthography, but we are making auxlang that should be maximum easy to use.
"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831.

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gossips
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Quote:
 
If nobody objects, I'll update the pages according to the UL solution.


These words with u in the place of jer looks too weird for me. I guess, it's more political choice then an objective solution ;)

Anyway, I won't write ul instead of ol for some time. I need to get used.
Vila matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
These words with u in the place of jer looks too weird for me. I guess, it's more political choice then an objective solution  ;)

Not entirely, gossips. The argument "too Russian" is not mine, mind, and personally I don't give a fiddler's fart if many things just happen to be identical to Russian if that's the logical outcome of voting and algorithms and all that. What mattters to me most is that ul seems like a reasonable compromise between ol, l and u.

Quote:
 
Anyway, I won't write ul instead of ol for some time. I need to get used.

That's okay, of course. Slovianski is merely a bunch of suggestions, and anybody's free to use them as they see fit.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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gossips
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OK then.
One application from me:
may you post all the words that will be changed by that new rule in one message here?
Vila matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Sure:

bavulna
dulg
dulgi
dulgost'
dulžiti
dulžni
dulžnost'
dulžnost'
izpulniati
izpulniati
izpulniati
izpulniti
izpulniti
izpulniti
kadulb
kulbasa
mulčanie
mulčati
mulviti
napulniti
natulknuti se
podulg
premulviati
premulviti
produlžati
produlžiti
pulkovnik
pulni
pulniti
pulno
sulnce
sulnečni
sulza
tulmačiti
tulpa
tulsti
upulnomočeni
upulnomočiti
upulnomočovati
vdulž
vulk
vulkolak
vulna
zapulniati
zapulniti
žulč
žulti

As you can see, it's mostly compounds of polni and dolg/dolgi.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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gossips
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Thanks, Jan.
Vila matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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Silmethule
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Veto for changing -or- to -ur-! ;-) We could have -or- or -ar- (the second in Polish, and is, let's say, similar to -or- while in many Slavlangs there are alternations a <=>o). Everything else would be less understandable.

And, again, for a Pole (while in Polish there are many -el- words) it is easier to understand -ol- (because in other words, often there is the same alternation, when in the place etymologically was jor (in Polish -> e, in Slovianski -> o)), but again, we have "długi" for dulgi/dolgi and I think the first is easierfor me, Czechs have "slunce" for sulnce/solnce, etc. So I agree changing -ol- to -ul- is, at least for West Slavs and BCS kind of improvement. But not the great one.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, like I said, Polish is very difficult from this point of view. Both hard and soft syllabic L become ŁU after a dental consonant (słup, tłuc, tłusty, długi, tłum), in other cases it can go in many directions: pełny, wilk, milczenie, kiełbasa, żółw, żółty, mówić, chełm, słońce, wełna, pułkownik... All in all, I'd that for Poles UL is better in some cases and worse in some other cases.

In any case, I've implemented the change on my pages.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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iopq
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I'd rather prefer dlugi to dulgi
but dolgi is by far the winner in voting/population/consistency
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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I copy here my correspondence to Jarvi earlier today re. SUNCE vs. SOLNCE - and MULNIA vs. MOLNIA, because I believe it is relevant:
Steeven
______________________
"Andrej,
Thank you for your email regarding LIGHTNING.
I do not understand the need to have everything in absolute order "across the board" (to use an English expression).
We changed the word for "SUN" at the INTERSLAVIC/Slovioski dictionary from SUNCE to SOLNCE without any issue/problems from my dear SR/HR kolegi - probably for two reasons:

(1) the "SOL" of "SOLNCE" has its LATIN root which is recognised by all of them; and
(2) there is a clear majority of Slavic languages that use the "O" form.

Thus, because of the majority of "O" forms - and because the Latin word is recognized and welcomed ("SOL") - an important word like SUN is fully accepted as "SOLNCE".
____________________
This is the HUMANISTIC APPROACH to word considerations and selection, which I believe Slovianski should take into STRONG CONSIDERATION.
_______________________
In contrast, what I see is that, because of MULNIA versus MOLNIA .... Slovianski takes the approach that all words that fall into this category, are now to use the letter "U" or "UL".
This is the engineering/analytical approach - which, I believe should only be used as ONE TEST of what works best.

EXAMPLE:

LIGHTNING
The reason my HR/SR kolegi were so angered by the choice of MOLNIA and not MULNIA, is this:
If "MOLNIA" or "MONIA" were the majority used words throughout SLAVIA, they would not have had issue with the word MOLNIA.
But because MOLNIA is only used in RUSSIAN and MACEDONIA - with the version in Bulgarian "either/or" depending upon the Bulgarian accent (I am told), and "MUNIA" is used in Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia - my kolegi looked at this as a good reason for a compromise between the RUSSIAN FORM and the SR/HR FORM - t.j. MULNIA - where the SR/HR "U" was added and the RUSSIAN "L" was added.
(yes, yes, I know this does not have analytical sense)

AND IT ALSO GIVES GOOD REASON NOT TO PROCEED and change all of the forms in Slovianski to follow an analytical approach.

I would like the Slovianski Team to please consider having two levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Analytical
2. Humanistic, Artistic, Sonorous (how it sounds) > whether "the people" will like it, accept it, etc.


SOLNCE is one such example.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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wannabeme
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Southslavic seems to be this such:

SERBIAN: sunce, dugi, vuk (but Oldserbian and in Serbian dialects people say slunce, dlugi, vluk)
SLOVENIAN: (writes) solnce, dolgi, volk (reads) sounce, dougi, vouk
MACEDONIAN: solnce, dolgi, volk
Bulgarian: слънце, дълг, вълк


Serb Mac Bulg

leto leto ljato
mesto mesto mjasto
ja jaz az
vuk volk vlk
noć noć nošt


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iopq
Administrator
slovenian pronunciation is very varied, though
among its many dialects there is about every slavic feature you could think of

macedonian pronunciation is actually noť (yes, very similar to this czech letter) or nok'
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Steeven
 
I do not understand the need to have everything in absolute order "across the board" (to use an English expression).
We changed the word for "SUN" at the INTERSLAVIC/Slovioski dictionary from SUNCE to SOLNCE without any issue/problems from my dear SR/HR kolegi - probably for two reasons:

(1) the "SOL" of "SOLNCE" has its LATIN root which is recognised by all of them; and
(2) there is a clear majority of Slavic languages that use the "O" form.

Thus, because of the majority of "O" forms - and because the Latin word is recognized and welcomed ("SOL") - an important word like SUN is fully accepted as "SOLNCE".
____________________
This is the HUMANISTIC APPROACH to word considerations and selection, which I believe Slovianski should take into STRONG CONSIDERATION.
_______________________
In contrast, what I see is that, because of MULNIA versus MOLNIA .... Slovianski takes the approach that all words that fall into this category, are now to use the letter "U" or "UL".
This is the engineering/analytical approach - which, I believe should only be used as ONE TEST of what works best.

But then, Steeven, I have to say that I don't fully understand your kolegi in this case. Why denounce MOLNIA because it is "too Russian", and in the meantime opt for Russian SOLNCE all the same? Your Point 2 is in fact quite a strong point for using the OL form in all these cases!

Quote:
 
I would like the Slovianski Team to please consider having two levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1.  Analytical
2.  Humanistic, Artistic, Sonorous (how it sounds) > whether "the people" will like it, accept it, etc.


SOLNCE is one such example.

The problem is only that these humanistic, artistic and sonorous criteria are extremely subjective: what one person likes, the other may think of as ugly, and vice versa. While I agree with you that these elements should be taken into account anyway ("common sense"), we do not have much space for manoeuvering here.
Having MU(L)NIA and SOLNCE (and heck, why not PELNI in that case?) IMO is not a good way of building a compromise. Because what you get is the same sort of thing as Slovio KOROVA, ZLATO... And you know why that is bad? Because it makes word formation unpredictable. Several Slovianski users have learned it mostly by simply reading a few texts in it. Anyone with half a brain who knows a smaller Slavic language and has a minimal knowledge of Russian, recognises quickly that whenever Slovak, Czech or South Slavic has LA and Russian has OLO, Slovianski has LO. When they read the word KROVA and link it intuitively to their own KRAVA, they won't even have to think for a moment when they see the word ZLOTO in the next sentence. That is not only a matter of a engineering, but also of psychology. And OL/UL is precisely such a case!
If you throw all cases of old syllabic L in one basket, you get OL, LU, L, U, L", "L, EL, IL', OU and who knows what else. UL at least has the advantage that it shares one element with every possible solution, just like LO is not only what Polish does, but also a compromise between OLO and LA.
And yes, we have consciously chosen to treat this kind of words as groups and not individually. This has also been tested and everyone will confirm that it works.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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IJzeren Jan
Feb 26 2010, 10:40 AM

>While I agree with you that these elements should be taken into account anyway ("common sense"), we do not have much space for manoeuvering here.

>And you know why that is bad? Because it makes word formation unpredictable.

>And yes, we have consciously chosen to treat this kind of words as groups and not individually. This has also been tested and everyone will confirm that it works.


Well, this does set a "base line."
;)

However, a more important question in this regard is:

"Will the Team acknowledge consistently common word modifications by actual users?

Right now, the dictionary of words is accepted and will, presumably, be used by the current "Team" without issue. However, this may not be the case as time goes on, and "the people" who are not a part of the Team choose to modify text or grammar on a consistent basis, across broad lines of "writers".

For example, Jan noted in one of the threads recently that the Polish language ultimately combined two separate Slavic words: "s" and "iz" into one modified word: "z".

If a similar event occurs in Slovianski, the question above "at point" then is begged.

Perhaps now is not the time for specific answers or protocols to be posted. However .....
:)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
I agree with the three criteria you listed in your signature, and I even agree with the order

I think that "this makes sense" is the most important because most people are going to be judging the language by its logic
if "sound" were the most important, we should have started a linguistic project to make all of the world to speak Italian

but "this looks good" is also important because that is the second criteria that people use to judge the language at first look
it obviously affects understandability of its written form as well
it is more important than avoiding conflicts, because finding a very ugly form to avoid a conflict will turn people off the language more than the occasional misunderstanding

example: if we decide the best-looking form for the word "year" is "rok" do we REALLY care about "rok" as a form of music? is it really a problem?

of course we should avoid conflicts, it makes no sense to pick "godina" as "year" when we have other options, in Ukrainian that means "hour" so it's clearly not a good choice

The ordering is also not set in stone, if our word formation means съсати becomes ссати it doesn't mean that we should use that form (it means "to pee" in Russian)

in the case of dolgi/solnce I think the "common sense" would be to just use the first rule
in some other cases we can improve our decisions based on other factors, but here the case is very thin
one reason for that is the Polish "ó" LOOKS different from u so in terms of looks dolgi/solnce wins
if Polish used a character like "ů" you'd have a much stronger case based on appearance
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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