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Syllabic L and R; "Tolsti volk" or "tulsti vulk"?
Topic Started: Feb 25 2010, 12:40 AM (3,837 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
The following was brought under our attention and I think it would be worth to discuss it: http://slovknig.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Lightn...ULNIA_vs._MUNIA

The question is simple: what happens to syllabic R and L? Currently, we have OR and OL. But one of Steeven's kolegi argued that polni is way too Russian, and that pulni would make a better compromise between Russian polni and Serbo-Croatian puni. Well, there is obviously no rule that forbids us to use a form as it appears in Russian. But I have to say, the second argument is sort of convincing. PULNI would be a good compromise between East and South Slavic (polni), CZ and SK are neutral (plni), and for Polish it won't matter much anyway (pełny); Polish treatment of syllabic L is quite complicated (and messy; the vote would sometimes go to U, sometimes to O). Czech and Slovak keep syllabic L. BCS has U, and Bulgarian I can't remember offhand, but probably "ъл".

However, we want to keep things systematic. Soft syllabic R' and L' both become ER/EL. It would make sense if we treat R/L collectively as well. Thus: would UR be an option?

Here are the affected words, as far as they are in the dictionary:

  • L: bavolna, dolg (dolžni), dolgi (dolgost', podolg, vdolž, prodolžati/prodolžiti), dolžiti, dolžnost', kadolb, kolbasa, molčati (molčanie), molviti (molva etc.) natolknuti sia, polni (polno; polniti, izpolniati/izpolniti, napolniti, zapolniati/zapolniti etc.), solnce (solnečni), solza, tolmačiti, tolpa, tolsti, upolnomočovati/upolnomočiti (upolnomočeni), žolč, žolti; polk, stolp, holm, čoln, volk.
  • R: boršč, gorb, gordi (?), gorlo, gornec, gornuti, gorst', gortan', hort, korč, korčiti, korčma, korma (kormiti, kormienie), morkov, morznuti (perhaps better: mroznuti?), storčiti (?), torg (torgovati, torgovec, torgovia, vtorgati/vtorgnuti); borzo.

If we change them, this is what we'd get:

  • L: bavulna, dulg (dulžni), dulgi (dulgost', podulg, vdulž, produlžati/produlžiti), dulžiti, dulžnost', kadulb, kulbasa, mulčati (mulčanie), mulviti (mulva etc.) natulknuti sia, pulni (pulno; pulniti, izpulniati/izpulniti, napulniti, zapulniati/zapulniti etc.), sulnce (sulnečni), sulza, tulmačiti, tulpa, tulsti, upulnomočovati/upulnomočiti (upulnomočeni), žulč, žulti; pulk, stulp, hulm, čuln, vulk.
  • R: buršč, gurb, gurdi (?), gurlo, gurnec, gurnuti, gurst', gurtan', hurt, kurč, kurčiti, kurčma, kurma (kurmiti, kurmienie), murkov, murznuti, sturčiti (?), turg (turgovati, turgovec, turgovia, vturgati/vturgnuti); burzo.
When it comes to voting, very roughly (on top of my head):
East Slavic: OR, OL
Polish: AR, ŁU/OŁ/ÓŁ/EŁ/IL -> neutral
Czech/Slovak: syllabic R and L -> neutral
South Slavic: OR, U/"L (not sure about OR)

While UL isn't really attested anywhere (save Polish "żółty", which of course is really OL), it would make a nice compromise between OL and U. Here I agree with Steeven's kolegi. Besides, UL isn't any less understandable for West Slavs than OL.
However, the forms with UR are a bit strange.

So the next question is: should syllabic R and syllabic really be treated together? Or could OR/UL also be an option?

I don't really have a preference myself. Basically, I think we should change things only when we have a good reason for it, but this change could be implemented quite easily, and the average text hardly be affected by it, or not at all. So what do others think?
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Moraczewski
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South Slavs (BSC+Slovene) have syllabic R
Bulgarian, ofc, has ър

So I think we should apply OR/UL in this case.

Dear linguists, I respect your intention very much, I am also an artlanger somewhere deep in my soul, and having consistent reflex of old strong hard jer would be also important for me, but there we have to follow the reason of understandability instead of etymology.
BTW there is nothing bad from linguistic point of view when *ъr and *ъл have different development, because it happens in natural languages.
"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831.

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iopq
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I would agree with or/ul

but you forget that Macedonian has poln and Slovenian has poln
so you're really just changing a common poln form from south and east slavic based on ONLY the штокавски dialect which is basically half of a vote in our system

so based on voting I would have to disagree with the proposed solution
I mean if we wanted things to be more understandable, why not just introduce "hoteol" just for the hell of it? it's more understandable to BCS speakers, for sure!

we can't accomodate every single language, plus, in our language the "fill vowel" is "o" so if you know the form pln, you would guess the Slovianski form would be plon or poln
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
South Slavs (BSC+Slovene) have syllabic R

Ah yes, of course! And so does Macedonian.

Quote:
 
Bulgarian, ofc, has ър

So I think we should apply OR/UL in this case.

Yes, I think UR wouldn't give any improvement.
However, the thing is not thát simple. While BCS has U and Bulgarian has "L, Macedonian has OL and so does Slovene (both have poln). Not that it should change necessarily anything, but the only ones for whom OL > UL would really be an improvement are the BCS speakers. In terms of votes:
OL: Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Slovene, Macedonian (2,75 votes)
UL: BCS (0,75 votes)
neutral: Czech, Slovak, Polish, Bulgarian (2,5 votes)
As you can see, it's always dangerous to assume that Slovene will probably to the same as BCH and Macedonian as Bulgarian. Especially Slovene can sometimes be a real oddball language.

But I have to mention that UL has also another advantage: the sequence TulT doesn't occur anywhere else in Slovianski, so its background is pretty unambiguous.

If UL/OR would be a disadvantage (a minor one, but still), we might also take another possibility into account: simply R and L (plni, vlk, krczma). I'm not sure that would a good idea, though.

Quote:
 
BTW there is nothing bad from linguistic point of view when *ъr and *ъл have different development, because it happens in natural languages.

That's true. The hard jer in these cases behaves fundamentally different from other cases.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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why is BCS 0.75 votes
did we downgrade Slovenian to 0.25?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Downgrade not, but the original idea was that this subfamily consists of four languages: Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian. It's not entirely fair, because the latter three are identical in 99% of the cases - and impractical, too. In terms of speakers it would make sense, but since Macedonian and Bulgarian are equal, we might as well say that Slovene and BCS are equal, thus giving Slovene half a vote.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Moraczewski
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Czech has sometimes -lu- there, but even then UL will get only 1.25 votes.
Yes so with help of Slovene and Macedonian to all East Slavic branch, -ol- is definitely the most "common" solution.
It is not our will, it's the reality... yes, unfortunately BCS is so often outvoted.
"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831.

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IJzeren Jan
Feb 24 2010, 09:53 PM
Downgrade not, but the original idea was that this subfamily consists of four languages: Slovene, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian. It's not entirely fair, because the latter three are identical in 99% of the cases - and impractical, too. In terms of speakers it would make sense, but since Macedonian and Bulgarian are equal, we might as well say that Slovene and BCS are equal, thus giving Slovene half a vote.

huh? sztokavski is one language
in fact, kajkavski is more different from sztokavski
so croatian is more similar to serbian than to its OWN dialect kajkavski
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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But we never count kajkavski, we always count only official languages..
"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831.

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Jarvi
Feb 24 2010, 10:06 PM
But we never count kajkavski, we always count only official languages..

so in a world where Yugoslavia stays together we would have made a different Slovianski?
and I'm guessing if the USSR stayed together we'd just have
2 votes: Russian
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Let's try again...

OL
advantages: majority solution; attested in East Slavic, Slovene and Macedonian; in line with OR; in line with hard jer > O
disadvantages: "too Russian"; bad for BCS; O is already pretty dominating in Slovianski

UL
advantages: more middle-of-the-road; better for BCS speakers; less ambiguity; more aesthetically pleasing to many
disadvantages: minority solution; inconsistency between OR and UL

As for Slovene and BCS, I'll update the Voting Machine so that both have 1/2 vote.

BTW, it's true that poor BCS is often outvoted by East and West together. Let's face it: Polish and Russian are closer to each other than Serbocroat to any of them. We should try to treat BCS with some extra care, love and tenderness. ;) Especially when understandability for ES and WS isn't jeopardised at all.
Besides, even if POLNI exists in Ukrainian, Slovene and Macedonian, it's still considered "too Russian" by a lot of people.
So yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to vote for UL after all...
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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here we have Ukr, Sln, Mk and it's too Russian
but idti is ONLY Russian but apparently it's "logical"
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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valdi

Quote:
 
Besides, UL isn't any less understandable for West Slavs than OL.
However, the forms with UR are a bit strange.


I agree.

To me dulg, mulviti, produlzsati, sulnce, pulni are OK.

But kurma (kurmiti ), kurczma.... are a little strange.



Valdi
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Vojta
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valdi
Feb 25 2010, 08:56 AM
Quote:
 
Besides, UL isn't any less understandable for West Slavs than OL.
However, the forms with UR are a bit strange.


I agree.

To me dulg, mulviti, produlzsati, sulnce, pulni are OK.

But kurma (kurmiti ), kurczma.... are a little strange.



Valdi

This discussion shows, why I in the NS langauge kept hard jer.

vlk, krmiti, sglasiti, otgovoriti, ...

To You approach: You no not need to have exacly only one universal rule.
First, try to write algorithms, where nothing, where E, where O, where U etc.

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Vojta
 
First, try to write algorithms, where nothing, where E, where O, where U etc.

Yes, that's quite it. Well, it's quite simple: normal weak jers disappear, strong soft jers always become E, strong hard jers always become O.
But it's also true that natural languages tend to differ when it comes to jer + liquid sequences. What we are discussing here is making an exception for jer + L.

If nobody objects, I'll update the pages according to the UL solution.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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