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Writing without many apostrophes
Topic Started: Feb 17 2010, 09:12 AM (1,188 Views)
iopq
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If people dislike the form sja or s'a then we shouldn't change the way it sounds to se. We should just find a better way to spell it.

What we could do is write ia/iu after consonants instead of 'a/'u. In which case the word will be spelled sia. Words with -ija will be unaffected.

Zemia but: armija
Земя but: армия
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Well well, that would basically be a return to 2006 Slovianski, now wouldn't it? :)

I'm all for it. Now that Slovianski is four years old, has a group of active users and a bigger group of interested bystanders, and has been talked about at several other places too, this much is clear to me: most people hate these apostrophes. Even though they may as well be omitted in writing, and the average Slovianski text doesn't contain that many of them at all, Slovianski still has a reputation of being "that language with all them apostrophes". Besides, j isn't too popular either, I've noticed.

I've been thinking lately about limiting the apostrophes to those places where they are absolutely necessary, but now that I think of it, we can even get rid of them altogether. So here's a suggestion:

  • We use i after a consonant and before a vowel: zemia, sia, riad, videnie, etc.
  • We change the infinitives to -ti (Andrej mentioned that -t could too easily be taken for a 3rd person singular by Russians)
  • -ija stays -ija
  • The remaining apostrophes are dropped. Real'ni isn't any more understandable than realni, szest is equally clear as szest'.
  • That goes for feminine nouns ending in a consonant, too: jednost is equally understandable as jednost', and since gender is known anyway the apostrophe isn't really necessary for inflection.
That leaves us with masculine words like put', med', pisatel'. These are the hardest. I can see four possibilities:

  • we drop the apostrophes here, too, and accept genitives like puta/meda/pisatela
  • we drop the apostrophes and give them an "irregular" genitives: pisatel (-lia) in the dictionary)
  • we keep the apostrophes in these rare cases;
  • we change them to j: putj, medj, pisatelj.

IMO, this would be a good solution, and it will undeniably please quite a lot of people. I know, Slovianski is not meant to be particularly aesthetical, but well, there's nothing against making it look nicer than it does.

This leaves us with one issue: how to handle words like radio, radiator, diamant, skorpion etc.? Of course, a speaker of Polish, Czech, Slovak or Croatian will know how to handle these words anyway, but how I am going to tell my transliteration program that in these cases io/ia sequences represent two syllables and not one? Any suggestions?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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valdi

IJzeren Jan
Feb 17 2010, 11:34 AM
Well well, that would basically be a return to 2006 Slovianski, now wouldn't it? :)


  • We use i after a consonant and before a vowel: zemia, sia, riad, videnie, etc.


  • Ok. V Polsce ljudi govorjut "zemJa rJad videnJe"

    Quote:
     

  • We change the infinitives to -ti (Andrej mentioned that -t could too easily be taken for a 3rd person singular by Russians)

    OK.
    Quote:
     

  • -ija stays -ija
    OK ale:
    Li jest nekaki konflikt jesli mi upotrebiame -ia : http://www.ivona.com/?tk=bU7aHXTe
    Quote:
     

  • The remaining apostrophes are dropped. Real'ni isn't any more understandable than realni, szest is equally clear as szest'.

  • That goes for feminine nouns ending in a consonant, too: jednost is equally understandable as jednost', and since gender is known anyway the apostrophe isn't really necessary for inflection.

    OK

    Quote:
     

Quote:
 
That leaves us with masculine words like put', med', pisatel'. These are the hardest. I can see four possibilities:

  • we drop the apostrophes here, too, and accept genitives like puta/meda/pisatela


  • Soglosim

    Ale to je tolko moje mislenie i ja jesem upotrebitel - ne jazikoved :)

    Valdi
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Valdi"
 
Quote:
 

[*]-ija stays -ija

OK ale:
Li jest nekaki konflikt jesli mi upotrebiame -ia : http://www.ivona.com/?tk=bU7aHXTe

Well, Polish isn't exactly consequent either. Armia > do armii, ziemia > do ziemi, organizacja > organizacyjny. The truth is that Polish has armija and organizacyja too, it just doesn't write them like that.

Quote:
 
Ale to je tolko moje mislenie i ja jesem upotrebitel - ne jazikoved  :)

Tvoja opinija kak upotrebitel ne je mene-vazsna, czem opinii jazikovedov. Slovianski je jazik ne tolko dlia naucznikov, ali tozs dlia liudiov! :)
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
(UTF-8)

This would be an example of what I'm suggesting:

Paternoster

Naš otec, ktori ješ v nebah,
da sveÄŤene je tvoje imeno,
da priide tvoje krolevstvo,
da bude tvoja volia, kak v nebah tak i na zemie,
hleb naš každodenni daj nam tutden,
i izvinij nam naše grehi, tak kak mi izvinime naših grešnikov,
i ne vedij nas v pokušenie,
ale spasij nas od zlogo.

Naše selo (Andrej's text in the Pan-Slavic relay)

Od vsih vozmožnosti postojanogo prebivania, to, čo javi sia mi najviše radostnim, je male selo daleko od grodskogo šuma; male sosedstvo. To sut ne polno-naseliene mnogokomnatne domi, ale drevene selske domiki, tute proste i ne-opisujeme žilišča, s obitateliami, čii lica sut tak dobro znane, kak cveti v našem sade; mali osobni svet, tesno sjedinieni i zatvorieni, kak mrovki v mrovišče, ili pčeli v ulie, ili ovci v ovčarnie, ili mniški v konvente, ili moreplavateli na korable; gde vsaki znaje vsakogo i je znani dlia vsakogo; interesuje sia vsakim, i je dozvolieni imati nadeju, že každi čuje interes do njego. Kolko že je radostno zanuriti v tute istine serdečne čutenia milogo i nevedomogo vpliva privičaja, i poznati i poliubiti vseh liudov okolo nas, so vsimi ih osobenostiami, prosto kak mi poznavame i liubime zakutki i povroti tenistih ulic i solnečne luki, ktore mi prohodime každi denj. I male společenstvo je najviše dobro kak v trezvoj stvornosti, tak i v poezii ili proze; selske sosedstvo; dolga, rozprostraniena motajuča sia ulica u podnoža miloj vozvišinosti, s cestoju poprek, vsegda zapolnienoj vozami i konnikami. Ne želate li vi proidti so mnoju prez naše selo, liubezni čitatelj? Putovanie ne bude dolgim. Mi počneme na dolnom konce, i prodolžime na vzgorie.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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And what will be in Cyrillic?

I must agree that this orthography looks more friendly. But unfortunately it makes Slovianski more and more far from Southern languages giving it real Western-Slavic look.

By the way putj and medj are not options. It is really weird. However, pisatelj looks OK for Southern Slavs.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Vojta
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Please, remove -IJA, -JA, and make something similar like this:


Code:
 

                   j.č. (singular)     mn.č. (plural)      dv.č. (dual)      
1.p. (nominativ)    bur-i-a             bur-i-i             bur-i-e            
2.p. (genitiv)      bur-i-i             bur-i-ej            bur-i-u            
3.p. (dativ)        bur-i-i             bur-i-am            bur-i-ama          
4.p. (akuzativ)     bur-i-u             bur-i-i             bur-i-e            
5.p. (vokativ)      bur-i-e             bur-i-i             bur-i-e            
6.p. (lokal)        bur-i-i             bur-i-ah            bur-i-u            
7.p. (instrumental) bur-i-ej            bur-i-ami           bur-i-ama          

                   j.č. (singular)     mn.č. (plural)      dv.č. (dual)      
1.p. (nominativ)    cesarstv-i-e        cesarstv-i-a        cesarstv-i-i      
2.p. (genitiv)      cesarstv-i-a        cesarstv-i-ej       cesarstv-i-u      
3.p. (dativ)        cesarstv-i-u        cesarstv-i-em       cesarstv-i-ema    
4.p. (akuzativ)     cesarstv-i-e        cesarstv-i-a        cesarstv-i-i      
5.p. (vokativ)      cesarstv-i-e        cesarstv-i-a        cesarstv-i-i      
6.p. (lokal)        cesarstv-i-i        cesarstv-i-eh       cesarstv-i-u      
7.p. (instrumental) cesarstv-i-em       cesarstv-i-emi      cesarstv-i-ema      


Jest to symetrične s

Code:
 

                   j.č. (singular)     mn.č. (plural)      dv.č. (dual)      
1.p. (nominativ)    duš-a               duš-i               duš-e              
2.p. (genitiv)      duš-i               duš-ej              duš-u              
3.p. (dativ)        duš-i               duš-am              duš-ama            
4.p. (akuzativ)     duš-u               duš-i               duš-e              
5.p. (vokativ)      duš-e               duš-i               duš-e              
6.p. (lokal)        duš-i               duš-ah              duš-u              
7.p. (instrumental) duš-ej              duš-ami             duš-ama            


                   j.č. (singular)     mn.č. (plural)      dv.č. (dual)      
1.p. (nominativ)    pol-e               pol-a               pol-i              
2.p. (genitiv)      pol-a               pol-ej              pol-u              
3.p. (dativ)        pol-u               pol-em              pol-ema            
4.p. (akuzativ)     pol-e               pol-a               pol-i              
5.p. (vokativ)      pol-e               pol-a               pol-i              
6.p. (lokal)        pol-i               pol-eh              pol-u              
7.p. (instrumental) pol-em              pol-emi             pol-ema            

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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Jan van Steenbergen
Jarvi
 
And what will be in Cyrillic?

Basically it won't be affected by the sja/s'a/sia issue, the diffference between those is merely a matter of displaying it in Latin orthography.

Obviously, where Latin loses apostrophes, Cyrillic will lose its soft signs.

Quote:
 
I must agree that this orthography looks more friendly. But unfortunately it makes Slovianski more and more far from Southern languages giving it real Western-Slavic look.

I would have thought that too, but looking at Vojta's Novoslovienskij (which has quite some South Slavic elements, after all, and seems to be perfectly understandable for South Slavs), I would suspect there shouldn't be much of a problem with that.

Quote:
 
By the way putj and medj are not options. It is really weird. However, pisatelj looks OK for Southern Slavs.

Yes, that's more or less what Dražen wrote to me as well. Frankly, I don't really see what the problem is with medj and putj, though. Especially since preserving j means in fact maintaining the current situation in this case!

But well, let's have a look at the words that are affected:

  • with -lj: avtomagistral' - bol' - cel' - dal' - detal' - faul' - hmel' - jul' - kašel' - korabl' - krol' - kukol' - mebel' - stil' - tekstil' + all the -tel' words.
  • with -nj: den' - dlon' - greben' - jelen' - jun' - kamen' - klen' - kon' - koren' - kremen' - ogon' - pen' - plomen' - stupen' - uroven' - vjazen'
  • with -rj: dever' - fevruar' - januar' - komentar' - kuder' - kuhar' - lekar' - suhar' - vugor' - zver'
  • with -tj: dobit' - gost' - lokot' - nogot' - put' - zjat'
  • with -dj: dožd' - med' - medved' - odpoved' - želud'
  • with -sj: gus' - karas' - los' - ris'
Obviously, -lj and -nj are the most numerous of these. According to Dražen, they shouldn't be a problem at all.

Next are the -rj. My belly feeling is that their understandability (at least from a Polish point of view) won't suffer considerably if we drop -j.

I'm having huge doubts about -tj and -dj. Yes, put can be, especially since we also have putovanie. But "togo gosta" or "togo nogta" doesn't make me feel comfortable. Unless that's what South Slavic does anyway.

As for the very few words on -sj and (potentially) -zj: I guess hardening them won't do any harm, especially since none of these words are used often.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Vojta
Feb 17 2010, 06:05 PM
Please, remove -IJA, -JA, and make something similar like this: [...]

Well, what we currently have isn't THAT far away from your table. However, Igor is IMO right that we must distinguish between -ija and -ja/-ia/-'a. Albeit for one major reason: for the sake of word formation. ZEMIA + -NI should obviously spawn ZEMNI (or ZEMSKI), but ORGANIZACIJA should of course generate ORGANIZACIJNI.

I have mixed feelings towards BURII. Yes, theoretically it can be read as BURJI, and acknowledging this might even help us get rid of one not entirely convenient piece of irregularity: that "ji" always becomes "i". But at present it means three syllables in Slovianski, and unless we change that, "burii" wouldn't be an option, it seems.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Kasjam

Vitajte, ja jesu Kasja iz Polski. Dobro, czo możu nakonec pisat' na forum, visze rano probavala, ale bez uspeha :D Oj, a potom ja imala problemi s komputerom. :(

most people hate these apostrophes.
Da, to pravda. Ja priviknula do apostrofov, ale jesu soglosna czo slovianski najdobro vigljade bez nich.

[*]We use i after a consonant and before a vowel: zemia, sia, riad, videnie, etc.
Dlja mene i dlja Poljakov dobro bude, ale czo s inimi narodami? Li to ne jest visze skomplikovane dlja jużnih Slovjan?

[*]We change the infinitives to -ti (Andrej mentioned that -t could too easily be taken for a 3rd person singular by Russians)
Może bit' t ili ti, bez rozlicza.

[*]we keep the apostrophes in these rare cases;
[*]we change them to j: putj, medj, pisatelj.

Ja milsju, czo jedna iz tih dvoh możlivosti.

Any suggestions?
Może tolko jedno ... dobro, czo robotate znovu nad slovianskom. Ja ljubju slovianski taki jaki jest, ale bez apostrofov. ;) Budu probovat pisat/pisati bez nih. Ale dalej ja bi v slovianskom ne izmenila mnogo :rolleyes:
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iopq
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It's not going back to 2006 Slovianski, because Slovianski is a language, not a script. The written script is not part of the language, it's a representation of it on paper or on the screen.


>We change the infinitives to -ti (Andrej mentioned that -t could too easily be taken for a 3rd person singular by Russians)
why would they be confused, they have -t' infinitives in their own language



>The remaining apostrophes are dropped. Real'ni isn't any more understandable than realni, szest is equally clear as szest'.
szest and szest' mean two different things in Russian, so you're wrong



I never said get rid of apostrophes, we can reserve apostrophes for the end of the word
or instead of apostrophes we can have Polish and Slovak letters for the soft sounds (but of course ascii requires apostrophes)
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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steeven
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I and my Slovioski business kolegi would be very happy if apostrophes disappeared from Slovianski along with the overzealous use of the letter "j". Indeed, it is probably the "appearance" of Slovianski that perhaps has been the most challenging obstacle to me and my kolegi' (notwithstanding their prejudices for having used Slovioski for more than a year now). The non-emphasis of apostrophes would probably be as heralded as when we switched from "x's" to "haceki" - first in writing, and then especially in the online Interslavic Dictionary.

INJE KOMENTARI:

>We change the infinitives to -ti (Andrej mentioned that -t could too easily be taken for a 3rd person singular by Russians)
why would they be confused, they have -t' infinitives in their own language
- - - -
*I do not believe anyone will become confused simply by verbs ending in "-t" ... without the apostrophe!!!
Readers and writers will acclimate themselves quickly and accordingly.
And Russians will never have any problems distinguishing between an infinitive and the 3rd person singular. If one does, then, that person will more than likely already have greater problems and issues in their daily living that will automatically divert their attention and fulfill Darwin's theory.

>The remaining apostrophes are dropped. Real'ni isn't any more understandable than realni, szest is equally clear as szest'.
szest and szest' mean two different things in Russian, so you're wrong

- - - -
*Other languages have similar issues (e.g. in English: their, there, they're).
But the likelihood of confusion arising between "honey" and "copper" or "six" and "pole" are as likely as those word couplets ever being used in the same sentence together - almost 0%.

**Now my good friend Jarvi has offered, perhaps, a more plausible reason - at least as to why he would prefer to retain apostrophes and palatalising "J's" - for "historical sentimental reasons."
I can understand that.
I may not agree with it; but it is a very clean and forthright reason - versus - the possibility that one might confuse "copper" with "honey."

***I suggest that the APOSTROPHE be an "option" of the writer.
_____________________________________________
Blago te!
Steeven


:)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Well, I have to admit that my proposal was a rather radical one. I'm not saying we MUST get rid of all apostrophes altogether, but I think getting rid of a lot of them would already be a major step forward. I'd just like to have some discussion here about the subject, and see what the sentiments are.

Iopq
 
It's not going back to 2006 Slovianski, because Slovianski is a language, not a script. The written script is not part of the language, it's a representation of it on paper or on the screen.

Yeah, but you'll also have to admit that Slovianski is not a "typical" language either. The latter were spoken before they were ever written, and the written representation is some sort of a convention between the speakers. Slovianski is for 99.5 % a written language. That makes a transparant, convenient and attractive orthography of bigger importance than perfect pronunciation rules - or also, than perfect rules for representing pronunciation. What's the use of orthographic devices that nobody likes or uses, anyway?

Quote:
 
>We change the infinitives to -ti (Andrej mentioned that -t could too easily be taken for a 3rd person singular by Russians)
why would they be confused, they have -t' infinitives in their own language

Yes, but they also have -ti. As a matter of fact, I think there are more languages that never use -t' than there are that never use -ti in infinitives!

Quote:
 
szest is equally clear as szest'.
szest and szest' mean two different things in Russian, so you're wrong

So, is there any chance that anybody will ever confuse the number six with a flagpole? ;)
Every Russian user will know that it's not Russian. And honestly, you won't convince me that a Russian can't understand szest; if someone is really unable to, than we can safely conclude that Slovianski won't be his thing anyway.

Quote:
 
I never said get rid of apostrophes, we can reserve apostrophes for the end of the word

That would be a good thing by any standard!

Quote:
 
or instead of apostrophes we can have Polish and Slovak letters for the soft sounds (but of course ascii requires apostrophes)

I talked about that with Andrej. It's not impossible, of course, but utterly impractical. We shouldn't demand of people that they use special keyboard definitions of use transliterations programs for everything they write, because the only effect will be that almost nobody uses the "official" orthography. And indeed, practically it would mean apostrophes anyway.

BTW, welcome, Kasia!
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Thank you for your comments, Steeven!

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Indeed, it is probably the "appearance" of Slovianski that perhaps has been the most challenging obstacle to me and my kolegi' (notwithstanding their prejudices for having used Slovioski for more than a year now).

Yeah, and that's a Bad Thing. I mean, if orthography makes people run or stay away...

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*I do not believe anyone will become confused simply by verbs ending in "-t" ... without the apostrophe!!!
Readers and writers will acclimate themselves quickly and accordingly.
And Russians will never have any problems distinguishing between an infinitive and the 3rd person singular.  If one does, then, that person will more than likely already have greater problems and issues in their daily living that will automatically divert their attention and fulfill Darwin's theory.

Hehe, in all likeliness! :D I have no real issues with infinitives on -t either, I'm just saying that IF we drop the apostrophe, we might as well consider both options.

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szest and szest' mean two different things in Russian, so you're wrong[/i]
- - - -
*Other languages have similar issues (e.g. in English:  their, there, they're).

Indeed. Besides, to quote a certain Serbian newspaper, "to Poles it looks a bit like bad Polish, to Russians as broken Russian". :) Which also means that you can't expect a Russian to read it as if it were real Russian. It's more like: "Hey, that's a funny kind of Slovak, I can actually understand it!"

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But the likelihood of confusion arising between "honey" and "copper" or "six" and "pole" are as likely as those word couplets ever being used in the same sentence together - almost 0%.

Also true. The only trouble is that "med" would definitely be read as "honey" by most. I'm sure a Pole would still read an even fairly obvious phrase like produkcija meda i stala as "honey and steel production".

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**Now my good friend Jarvi has offered, perhaps, a more plausible reason - at least as to why he would prefer to retain apostrophes and palatalising "J's" - for "historical sentimental reasons."

That's indeed a perfectly valid argument.

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***I suggest that the APOSTROPHE be an "option" of the writer.

That has been the case from the very beginning! :)

Cheers,
Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Yes, may be infinitive/3rd singular -t ending is not major problem.

By the way I must confess that I am not happy with -tj option. Neither Steeven's colleagues who hate apostrophes will be happy, I believe.

So IMHO we should reserve optional apostrophes. At least in the dictionary. And write them only in cases of copper/honey. Also I have strong doubts that it will be good to switch med', stal' to masculine declension.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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