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Koexistencia Slovianski, Slovioski i Glagolica
Topic Started: Feb 15 2010, 08:00 PM (1,531 Views)
Vojta
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Autori jazyka Slovianski, jaka je Vaša pozicia k jazyku Slovioski/Interslavic (modifikovane Slovio)? Oni imajut velikij slovnik (45.000 slov ?)

Ako li jesm otvoril tu problemu, jest tu ješte jazyk Glagolica, kojže neznaju, je li on m‘rtvij ili ne.

====

Po mojemu:

1) Slovioski je poprobovanie "civilizirati" SLOVIO, no ja ne liubiu jih umetni slova i neprirodne kombinacie. No fakt jest, že imajut velikij slovnik.

2) Glagolica jest veliko podobna na Slovianski. Ja velike rozliče ne vidu. Oba dva jazyky jesut prirodni, legko porozumitielni, i uroven‘ oprostienia grammatiky jest takože podobna.

Imaju li pravdu ili ne?





Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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steeven
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Vojta,
Most of the artificial and not-natural constructions you see within the Interslavic Dictionary, are "left overs" from SLOVIO. So what you describe as elements you do not like, will be expunged as the Interslavic dictionary is updated.

Yes, Interslavic does contain words which are so-called "schematic" words - such as "slovkniga," which should be completely understandable to any Slavic speaker.

Other words have been purged/deleted from the dictionary - such as "MAX" and "PLUS" - which have been replaced with "vinše" itd.

Interslavic's orthography is more western slavic in style, and omits nearly all apostrophes and certain "j" letters, using "i" instead. Thus, nouns will end in "-cia" and "-nie" instead of "-cja" and "-nje".

The reflexive is always "se" and not "s'ja" or "sja".

"ŠTO" is generally used instead of "ČO" because "ŠTO" is more spoken across the Slavic speaking countries than "ČO".

Interslavic is not an updated SLOVIO - although originally it was intended to be a more Slavic Slovio - however, Andrej Moraczewski ("Jarvi"), Michal Borovička and I have been working diligently to remove the offending SLOVIO'isms from the dictionary.

There had been an ongoing discussion to "merge" Slovioski" and "Slovianski" until recently, which effort has terminated because Interslavic will continue to include elements of schematic grammar and vocabulary that is contrary to the Slovianski "rules."

The Interslavic Dictionary will include most of the Slovianski vocabulary - utilizing, however, orthography described above - and the options of the writer to choose a greater variety of vocabulary - including many more Southern Slavic words and "mixtures" of other Slavic forms, that should be equally recognised by all Slavic speakers (np: "ponjerže" = because = ibo = jer).

Interslavic will include a "Prostij Medžuslovianski", which will have two levels of declensions only (nominative and objective), all genders for both nouns and adjectives - this form will be available for the non-Slavic speaker.

Finally, "Polnij Medžuslovianski" will include grammar forms (primarily Adjective and Adverbial Participles) that are designed specifically for LEGAL COMMUNICATIONS among the Slavic countries - along with a SCHEMATIC LEGAL VOCABULARY.

:D

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Vojta
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Velika robota. Blagodariu za dolge objasnienie.

Prošu, kdie jest informacia o prostem mežduslovianski? Idea samo dvieh padov jest interesna, jest li to inspirovane novogrekskim jazykom?

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Steeven"
 
Most of the artificial and not-natural constructions you see within the Interslavic Dictionary, are "left overs" from SLOVIO.

Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? If you have imported all 4000 words from Slovianski and all 40,000 (?) words from Slovio, that would mean that about 90%of the words are stll the Slovio ones. Automatically adding -ij to every adjective doesn't make it more natural, methinks.

Quote:
 
Yes, Interslavic does contain words which are so-called "schematic" words - such as "slovkniga," which should be completely understandable to any Slavic speaker.

Steeven, it occurs to me that you have completely misunderstood the concept of schematicism. Believe me, there is nothing schematic about a word like "slovknig". It is a calque from the German word Wörterbuch, nothing else. Even Esperanto, a fairly schematic language, has the word vortaro: a combination of the word vorto "word" and the suffix -aro, which means the container of something. In fact, the word slovnik is much more schematic than the word slovknig!

Quote:
 
There had been an ongoing discussion to "merge" Slovioski" and "Slovianski" until recently, which effort has terminated because Interslavic will continue to include elements of schematic grammar and vocabulary that is contrary to the Slovianski "rules."

Terminated? I wasn't aware of that! As far as I can remember, all I did was asking a few questions, and asking for some arguments.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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gossips
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Quote:
 
Terminated? I wasn't aware of that! As far as I can remember, all I did was asking a few questions, and asking for some arguments.

It was in Slavic Unity forums
But why there's need for another language? Slovianski with some Slovio words is much understandable for me then Slovioski, maybe for others Slovioski is beter, but for me personally texts on Slovioski looks weird, some of them I can't understand at all.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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steeven
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"Steeven"
 
Most of the artificial and not-natural constructions you see within the Interslavic Dictionary, are "left overs" from SLOVIO.

"IJzeren Jan"
 

Isn't that a bit of an exaggeration? If you have imported all 4000 words from Slovianski and all 40,000 (?) words from Slovio, that would mean that about 90%of the words are stll the Slovio ones. Automatically adding -ij to every adjective doesn't make it more natural, methinks.

IRON JAN ... no, it is not an exaggeration. Andrej, Michal and I did not "import" the Slovio dictionary. We used the Slovio dictionary as our base originally - because at the time it was the only available dictionary with any substantive vocabulary .. ...and, originally, SLOVIOSKI was only intended to be "...a more Slavic Slovio". Slovianski had just started a small, few hundred word Google English-Slovianski dictionary.

Our thought was that it was better to use "something" as a basis, than nothing; short of using the individual dictionaries of the natural Slavic languages; ... and then, which one?

Thus, we started with all 50,000 Slovio words and have been systematically taking the time to replace or modify them. And, in some instances, we have kept words, because they "work" from a natural language standpoint.

There is no point in "...throwing out the baby with the bath water ..." to use an English expression.

Not all of Slovianski's now 4,000 word vocabulary is included. Many of the new words are not included, because they simply do not "work" for natural purposes - or they are based more upon one variety of natural Slavic language too heavily. But that can be worked out.

As far as adding an "-ij" adjectival ending to make something "more natural" ...as YeThinks ................... is, JAN, a pointless remark and uncalled for.
And, frankly, a surprise to be coming from you - someone who at least previously has always shown decorum and checked his sources before inserting his foot.

I.E., "-ij" was not chosen for your presumed purpose.
___________________________
"Steeven"
 
Yes, Interslavic does contain words which are so-called "schematic" words - such as "slovkniga," which should be completely understandable to any Slavic speaker.

"IJzeren Jan"
 
Steeven, it occurs to me that you have completely misunderstood the concept of schematicism. Believe me, there is nothing schematic about a word like "slovknig". It is a calque from the German word Wörterbuch, nothing else. Even Esperanto, a fairly schematic language, has the word vortaro: a combination of the word vorto "word" and the suffix -aro, which means the container of something. In fact, the word slovnik is much more schematic than the word slovknig!

JAN - you are right. That is not "schematicism." That was not my choice of word - but one which our mutual kolega chose to use, and I finally acquiesced to its use.
The point is that Interslavic does utilise neologisms, which are, apparently, anathema to Slovianski.
___________________________

"Steeven"
 
There had been an ongoing discussion to "merge" Slovioski" and "Slovianski" until recently, which effort has terminated because Interslavic will continue to include elements of schematic grammar and vocabulary that is contrary to the Slovianski "rules."

"IJzeren Jan"
 

Terminated? I wasn't aware of that! As far as I can remember, all I did was asking a few questions, and asking for some arguments.

JAN: there have been weeks of discussions with Jarvi on this. As someone else noted in here, some of it was noted in the Slavic-Unity forum boards; however, a greater amount of it was in private emails and in Google Wave (indeed, you were invited to join us in our Google Wave discussions last week).

Jarvi, Michal Boravicka and I have spent literally days of hours on discussion what "compromises" were best to create a merger.

For a portion of this time, you had stated you would be unavailable for discussion, because you were in transition from The Netherlands to Poland - or some other "situational" issue.

Alas, Michal and I learned only late last week from Jarvi, that there could be no "compromise," because that apparently was never on the table.
In the end, it was "the Slovianski way ... or the highway."
And that is why I noted that our efforts have "terminated."
________________________________

I do believe that greater things can always be accomplished with the combined efforts of passionate, reasonable people. It is always helpful if communication is open and assumptions and presumptions carefully avoided. Interslavic will continue. Perhaps we can still find some common ground somewhere for compromise. If we cannot, then certainly all hope for peace and prosperity in this world is not achievable, he? :D

Blago te!

Steeven Radzikowski

Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
gossips
Feb 16 2010, 07:43 PM
It was in Slavic Unity forums
But why there's need for another language? Slovianski with some Slovio words is much understandable for me then Slovioski, maybe for others Slovioski is beter, but for me personally texts on Slovioski looks weird, some of them I can't understand at all.

I've seen that thread, but what I was referring to is a private exchange of thoughts between a few people exploring the possibilities of a merger.

Whether we need a third language? Well, everybody has the right to create a language if that's what he likes to do. As you may of may not know, it's one of my favourite timepasses! Personally, I don't see the point of any rivalry between Slovio, Slovioski and/or Slovianski. If someone writes in Slovio and someone else replies in Slovianski, and they both understand each other, it's fine and there's nothing to complain about. Things get ugly only when people start calling their project "the one and only", fighting other projects, etc. As far as I'm concerned, if someone prefers Slovioski over Slovianski, then by all means let him use Slovioski! The purposes of Slovianski are well-defined, and you won't find words like "universal", "official" or "Pan-Slavic" there.

As far as I know, the original idea of Slovioski was to build a bridge between Slovianski and Slovio. It was only later when Steeven decided to turn it into a separate language, and frankly, I don't really know why. I'm sure apostrophes alone can't be the reason for creating a separate language, especially since they aren't even mandatory at all in Slovianski, and neither can a preference for -ego over -ogo. Besides, Slovianski is an open project, and I haven't heard any proposal for reforming anything. For those who find Slovianski too hard to manage, there is always Slovianski-P that can serve as an alternative. So honestly, if there's something so wrong with Slovianski that people feel the need for creating another language, I'd really like to know why.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Steeven"
 
Slovianski had just started a small, few hundred word Google English-Slovianski dictionary.

That, to tell you the truth, isn't the case. The Google document has had about 1800 words for quite a long time. In the meantime, I and others have been steadily working on more words, but coining words in Slovianski requires quite some research. The dictionary has been expanded to 4000 words in no time, something that could impossible have been achieved within one or two months. Besides, don't forget one thing: Slovianski has a lot of "virtual vocabulary", the kind of vocabulary that isn't in the dictionary but that everybody knows anyway. Besides, Slovianski provides lots of tools for schematic word formation, and the dictionary contains only a few samples of that - mostly because we've been concentrating mostly on word roots, and not on numbers.

Quote:
 
Not all of Slovianski's now 4,000 word vocabulary is included.  Many of the new words are not included, because they simply do not "work" for natural purposes - or they are based more upon one variety of natural Slavic language too heavily.  But that can be worked out.

Of course! I'd be more than happy to hear from speakers of any Slavic language how well they can understand certain words. It's obvious that we can't suit everybody, because let's face it: 100% understandability is impossible for speakers of two very different languages.

Quote:
 
As far as adding an "-ij" adjectival ending to make something "more natural"

Thát I haven't said. Not to make it "more natural", but to make it "more Slovioski". If I've understood you correctly, "-ij" was mostly means to make it clear that a word is an adjective, even to a person who doesn't know Slavic. Am I wrong about that? If so, I apologize!

Quote:
 
JAN - you are right.  That is not "schematicism."  That was not my choice of word - but one which our mutual kolega chose to use, and I finally acquiesced to its use. The point is that Interslavic does utilise neologisms, which are, apparently, anathema to Slovianski.

Not necessarily, Steeven. As a matter of fact, Slovianski contains lots of neologisms. Like I said, it provides numerous tools for schematic word creation. The difference is that these tools are based on what the Slavic languages do. The main question is always: is it understandable? "Slovkniga" is a calque from German, not more understandable than "slovnik". That's basically what my issue with Slovio is (apart from endings like -is and -uf, of course): that it is literally choked with germanisms.

Quote:
 
JAN: there have been weeks of discussions with Jarvi on this.  As someone else noted in here, some of it was noted in the Slavic-Unity forum boards; however, a greater amount of it was in private emails and in Google Wave (indeed, you were invited to join us in our Google Wave discussions last week).

Actually, I'd like to join those discussions, but I can't really figure out how. I tried to, but all I got was some message that I had to download something else from Google first (something I've done before and that almost killed my computer).

Quote:
 
Alas, Michal and I learned only late last week from Jarvi, that there could be no "compromise," because that apparently was never on the table.
In the end, it was "the Slovianski way ... or the highway."
And that is why I noted that our efforts have "terminated."

Well, that was not my conclusion. All I have said is that as far as I am concerned, anything is possible, but all decisions have to be based on arguments. Because whatever our differences are, we all want the same: to have a good, consistent, workable and useful language. This language, obviously, should be a compromise between the Slavic languages, not a compromise between you, me, Andrej, Michal and others.

As far as I have understood, the whole issue is mostly about simplification. I am currently drafting a proposal, which I will send to you (and others) shortly.

Quote:
 
I do believe that greater things can always be accomplished with the combined efforts of passionate, reasonable people.  It is always helpful if communication is open and assumptions and presumptions carefully avoided.  Interslavic will continue.  Perhaps we can still find some common ground somewhere for compromise.  If we cannot, then certainly all hope for peace and prosperity in this world is not achievable, he?   :D

Agreed for 100%! :)

Cheers,
Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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Thank you Jan.

By the way: none of the encoding settings I choose, seem to allow me to ready everyone's accented latin letters and/or cyrillic text. (I am using Google Chrome)

Thus, if I select UNICODE UTF-8, I can read some of the posts correctly; but my "hacek s" becomes a Serbian "Lj" (or IPA - lambda).

My point is that I must be cautious in reading your texts - lest I make an assumption that your comments, examples, etc. are very wrong - when, with the right encoding for my system - you are really correct.

Very frustrating.

Have you considered using the http://forum.wordreference.com/index.php ?
or even www.network54.com (same network as Slovio's "blognik", but if used with its full capabilities, appears to run very smoothly and allows all Slavic language bukvi .....). I set up an "Interslavic Forum" at network54 a few weeks ago, when the language and epithets in the Slovio forum became unbearable.... please go here to see what it looks like (the colours are optional):

http://www.network54.com/Index/102477

Click on the second selection down - "InterSlavic" to see what your text would look like without any special actions on your part.

(just a thought ... :blink: )

Thank you.
SR
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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iopq
Administrator
we could move if people want to, lock this forum, make a redirect to the new one
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Steeven"
 
By the way:  none of the encoding settings I choose, seem to allow me to ready everyone's accented latin letters and/or cyrillic text.  (I am using Google Chrome)

Thus, if I select UNICODE UTF-8, I can read some of the posts correctly; but my "hacek s" becomes a Serbian "Lj" (or IPA - lambda).

You're right, it is annoying. The first thing I did after I became admin here was to try figuring out if there's anything we can do about it, but apparently, there isn't. It's not so bad as Beseda, where many things aren't possible at all, but we still have to switch from one encoding to another manually most of the time. And yes, some messages are written in Windows Cyrillic, others in Windows CE, others in UTF-u... once you've set one encoding, it will look good for one message and bad for another.

The best we can do right now is:
- agree among each other that we will use UTF-8 if we don't forget about it;
- use sz/zs/cz a bit more often, if it doesn't really matter.

Quote:
 
Have you considered using the http://forum.wordreference.com/index.php ?

Well, not considered, really. You mean, creating a subforum for Slovianski there?

Quote:
 
or even www.network54.com (same network as Slovio's "blognik", but if used with its full capabilities, appears to run very smoothly and allows all Slavic language bukvi .....).  I set up an "Interslavic Forum" at network54 a few weeks ago, when the language and epithets in the Slovio forum became unbearable.... please go here to see what it looks like (the colours are optional):

http://www.network54.com/Index/102477

Does this provider also offer the possibility of subforums? And of wholesale import of messages from other forums (like this one)?
No matter how cool and ideal a new place could be, moving places always has its disadvantages. There are always people who stay behind, but then, it's not like this forum has so many members that we couldn't handle that manually.
I still regret very much that we lost the old forum (even the wayback machine won't be of help here), because it contained valuable info about early Slovianski, lots of comparative tables, etc.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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Quote:
 
Does this provider also offer the possibility of subforums? And of wholesale import of messages from other forums (like this one)?


I do not know.
I merely set up the http://www.network54.com/Index/102477 forum site as an initial effort to offer a migration location for the blognik group to post, where (1) all accent marks and cyrillic may be used without issue; and (2) the posters can be policed to block out the paskudniki who were posting those inflammatory and disgusting hate and venom messages.

You are welcome to explore that one forum. I believe you are much more adept at determining the capabilities of these type of web forums than I am. If so, let me know and I'll forward you the access data.

BTW: the "language format" I set up originally was for SERBIAN CYRILLIC. Not sure if this matters; but, as you may see if you visit the InterSlavic forum thread where both I and Igor posted, the cyrillic and haceki letters appear loud and clear.

SR

PS: You watched "Bullwinkle"? :D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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Jack Daw

Hm, importing words from Slov. is not a good step. Slovianski is much easier to understand, well, it's completely easy to understand...
Although I sense strong Russian taste in Slovianski, which is however good, because I like Russian, it's very melodic and poetic language.
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steeven
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Jack Daw
Feb 19 2010, 06:18 PM
Hm, importing words from Slov. is not a good step. Slovianski is much easier to understand, well, it's completely easy to understand...
Although I sense strong Russian taste in Slovianski, which is however good, because I like Russian, it's very melodic and poetic language.

What is "Slov" ?

:blink:
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Steeven
 
What is "Slov" ?

:blink:

Hmm, I'd like to know that, too. The options are, AFAICT: Slovio, Slovianski-N, Slovianki-S, Slovianski-P, Slovioski, Slovo, Slovano, Slovene, Slovak, Slovincian, Slovianto..... Take your pick! :lol:
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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