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| The JE problem; How to get rid of йе- | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 14 2010, 12:46 PM (1,087 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2010, 12:46 PM Post #1 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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(continuation of this discussion) (UTF-8)
Personally I don't see a really great problem with the sequence ЙЕ. I agree, it doesn't look pretty, but it exists in Bulgarian, although it ain't too frequent there either. Many people seem to dislike it, so I think we should find another solution. I've actually been discussing this lately with Dražen as well. Some of you will say: just use Serbian Cyrillic and you're done with it. Yes, it's true that Serbian Cyrillic doesn't have this problem, and that's why we already have this orthography. But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be an orthography that can be written on a Russian keyboard as well. The current solution is in that non-Serbian Cyrillic the sequence JE is represented by ЙЕ after a vowel or word-initially, and by ЬЕ after a consonant. The latter doesn't seem to be much of a problem to anybody, and besides, it occurs only in verbal nouns and the like. However, ЙЕ is very frequent: it occurs at the beginning of many words (ЙЕДИН, ЙЕЗЕРО, ЙЕХАТЬ), in the conjugation of many verbs (ЗНАЙЕ, ДЯКУЙЕ, МИЙЕ), as well as in declension (ОРГАНИЗАЦИЙЕ). I agree that this is an ugly and clumsy solution, and it was picked mostly for the lack of a better solution. However, it's also true that Slovianski's kirilica shouldn't look like transliterated latinica, nor should latinica look like transliterated kirilica. Initially, we wanted a transliteration scheme that was as 1:1 as possible. Now that there are several additional transliteration mechanisms already, we might as well add another one. Besides, as far as I've seen people writing Slovianski in Cyrillic, it doesn't look like they use ЙЕ anyway. There are a few possibilities. We could say that instead of ЙЕ we simply use Е. Or, we use Ukrainian Є. Or some ancient-looking solution like ІЕ. As far as I'm concerned, the latter two aren't serious candidates at all, because only a Ukrainian keyboard could handle them. That leaves us with the following system: JA = Я JE = Е after a vowel or word-initially, ЬЕ after a consonant; in all other cases, Е = E JO = ЙО after a vowel or word-initially, ЬО after a consonant JU = Ю But now, here's the issue: how do we handle words like Estonija, poet, etc.? Естония and поет won't do the trick anymore, because they would be transliterated back as "Jestonija" and "pojet". Dražen suggested Ë, but I feel this would be misunderstood by too many people. A solution like ЪЕ would make things only worse, too. The solution Э has the disadvantage that this letter is used in Russian and Belarussian only. All in all, I think we have only two serious options here:
Personally, I think I'd prefer the second solution. Fortunately, it won't happen that often in Slovianski! Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 14 2010, 02:42 PM Post #2 |
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Administrator
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let me mention this, organizacija has the soft declension so it should only end in -i as in organizacii same thing for other nouns of this "soft" category like kost' it would be unthinkable to decline them the same as hard nouns |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2010, 03:02 PM Post #3 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yes, I was wrong about that. Still, -e is used in the dative singular. But okay, that won't occur too frequently. And anyway, I really don't want to make any more rules and exceptions here. The declension tables are already more complex than can be expected from an IAL. But that was not an answer to my question. How to handle cases when JE does occur? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Feb 14 2010, 03:21 PM Post #4 |
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Jan, your second solution is quite reasonable. But shall we add Ukrainian orthography also? Then we shall have problem: Russian Cyr: Эстония Ukrainian Cyr: Естония hm... I am sure Belarussians use Russian layout because Russian is official language of Belarus and is widely used in business and other major things. May be Ukrainians use Russian layout also? although nationalists are against Russian... hmmmmm... this is very sensitive question. |
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"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2010, 03:50 PM Post #5 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yeay, I am of course aware of that problem. The thing is, if we add Є for JE and Е for initial E, that would effectively mean adding a third official orthography for Slovianski. Like I've said before, I'm not against "allowing" several national orthographies (a Polish one using Ś, a Czech one using D-hachek, etc., so why not a Ukrainian one using Є), but these should be one level below the "official" orthographies. Are a few isolated instances really worth the effort of creating one additional orthography, were some people are complaining that we have too many of them already? Reality is that nobody writes in perfect Slovianski anyway. We all have a natural tendency to mix it somehow with what we know by ourselves about the Slavic languages. Personally, I won't object when a Ukrainian or a Bulgarian write both Естония and един, as they will be understood anyway. When it comes to writing official texts, I'm sure producing a single Э here and there won't be that much of stretch. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Feb 14 2010, 04:28 PM Post #6 |
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This is really reasonable. Moreover, Bulgarian national orthography has no means to make difference between E/JE (provided йе is not an option), so they will anyway have to write both Естония and един (and they do that already in Bulgarian language). The question is one: what orthography should be "official"? My personal favourite is Ukrainian because it is the one that allows using one letter for each of jotated vowels. Disadvantage is that Russians will have to learn Ukrainian layout to write in "official" Slovianski - but I must say from my own experience, it is not that hard (keyboard layout the same as Russian, only i instead of ы, Є instead of э and ï instead of ъ). |
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"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Silmethule | Feb 14 2010, 05:17 PM Post #7 |
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Well, if the discussion is only about official orthography, then what's the problem? Do without the и and й signs (which aren't too pretty anyway, if we discuss about the aesthetics) And write Cyrillic "је" for "je" and Cyrillic "і" for "i". I don't know if there is any national keyboard layout using these two (Ukrainian and Belorusian use "і", but not "ј", and the Serbian uses "ј" but not "і"), but do we need any of national keyboard layout to fit official orthography? We could make alternative Slovianski Cyrillic layout for most used operating systems... And if you want ease of use and transliteration to Latin, and understandability, then write this "bad looking" "йе". It is to be an easy to use auxlang! Not a beautiful fictional natlang with good-looking orthography. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2010, 05:25 PM Post #8 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I agree with you that the Ukrainian system is nice and logical. However, there's one major disadvantage. Not every Slav is familiar with the Ukrainian alphabet, and only Ukrainians can write the Ukrainian letter JE. To me, it would look strange to have two official Cyrillic orthographies, one Serbian-based and one Ukrainian-based, and nothing based on Russian. Besides, and here's the deal: initial E occurs quite rarely. On my entire texts page, there are altogether 5 places where Russian reverse E would be used, in the three following words: "evropejski", "etnini" and "ekonomini". That's nothing in comparison to the number of places where Ukrainian JE would be used (= JE initially or after a vowel): 49. In other words, the Russian letter would still be rare, while any text would literally be soaked with Ukrainian JE's. In other words, while I have my issues with the Russian solution, it still seems to be the lesser evil in this case. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Vojta | Feb 14 2010, 07:04 PM Post #9 |
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Old (from 11c) czech, polish and slovak latin transcript for soft e is ie and for standard e is e. Czechs have from 15c ě, but the other nations still have original ie. I still think, it is important to distinct between ie and je. In czech, for example oběd (obied) means lunch, and objet means to go around (ob+jet). There is a lot of ot other examples in czech (and I hope in SK and PL as well), where je is an syllable or just one softened wovel ie/ě. In SL language You can use this difference for verbal noun vs. adjective: e.g. pisani, pisana, pisane and verbal noun pisanie. ==== Boys, I DO NOT SEE YOUR CYRILLIC in this thread!!! Instead of one cyrrilic letter I have two mismatched latin letters. Too bad fo me. (Windows7 Proff EN version, UFT8, both Firefox and MSExplorer)
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| Vojta | Feb 14 2010, 07:08 PM Post #10 |
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Oh, I forget... Somewehere here is written, that SL is firstly THE WRITTEN and READ common language. This is why I support to be more precise.
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| gossips | Feb 14 2010, 07:26 PM Post #11 |
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I don't know where is this function in MS IE, but in Firefox you may click on the "View->Character Encoding->More Encodings->Unicode->Unicode (UTF-8)" or in "View->Character Encoding->More Encodings->East European->Cyrillic (Windows-CP1251)" to switch back. |
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Vila matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 14 2010, 08:12 PM Post #12 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yeah, besides, as far as I know Firefox is a bit better equipped when it comes to picking the right encoding and/or font. I'm using IE8 myself. I can't be of much help, because my version is in Dutch. But what I'm having is two different ways to change the encoding manually: 1. if you press "alt", you automatically go to the bar top left. Under "view" (or "image"?) you'll find an option "encoding". 2. top right there's also a set of buttons. Under "page" there should also be an option "encoding". I have tried, but unfortunately, I don't think it's possible to change the default encoding of this forum. That means that in many cases you'll have to change the encoding manually, mostly to Unicode (UTF-8) or to Cyrillic (Windows). I know it's annoying, but there's nothing that can be done about it. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Vojta | Feb 14 2010, 09:41 PM Post #13 |
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Thank You so much. Malformed messages are now visible in UTF8. But the others, which were fine, are malformed now. But no problem. I will change encodings manualy between UFT8 and autodetect and will see everything. :lol: |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| bandziol20 | Aug 31 2011, 11:26 AM Post #14 |
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Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense. Piem slovjansky. I write Slovianski. http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp | |
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2:14 PM Jul 11