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Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se
Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,438 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, it's good this comes up. We have, I think, to distinguish between two separate discussions:

1. The conjugation that, as in: "I know (that) you would do it".
AFAIK, East Slavic has a variant of čo/što, West Slavic and Church Slavonic have že, BCS and Slovene have da. If I understand Dražen correctly, South Slavs wouldn't understand že and West Slavs wouldn't understand da. If so, čo would seem the best option. In Slovianski, it seems čo and že are used about equally often.
"Ja znal, čo ti to izdelaš".

2. The conjugation in order to, so that. "He want to the supermarket in order to buy some milk".
Slovianski has IIRC abi and čobi. In most or all languages, this conjunction is formed by combining "that" with the particle "bi", so čobi would be the obvious choice. However, dabi would make sense too, and make Slovianski a little more attactive for South Slavs.

"Da" has indeed several meanings. "Yes", and it can also serve as an optative particle. "Da prijde tvoje krolevstvo".
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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gossips
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Quote:
 
"Da" has indeed several meanings. "Yes", and it can also serve as an optative particle. "Da prijde tvoje krolevstvo".

Yep. Some funny task, look...

"Da" безусловно имеет несколько значений. "Да", да еще частицей пожелания может служить :D

He-he. Can you parse this sentence? Little hint (select the next row):
And thy kingdom come...
Vila matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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wannabeme
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steeven
Feb 27 2010, 11:38 PM
wannabeme
Feb 27 2010, 11:01 PM
If I am thinking the right way in BCS there is some more words of "that" meaaning.

Radujem se da si došao. (I am happy that you come)
Radujem se što si došao. ( I am happy for that you come)

Čuo sam da je došao. (I have heard that he came)
Čuo sam kako je došao. (I have heard that he came, but it isnt ought to be so - like conjunktive).

So Southslavs could understand "što" because Eastslavs has it + Bulgarian and BCS partially.
But že sounds nice and Southslavs could learn it and accept it.
But što would be more recognizable at the first look.


Well, I have been working with HR SR people now for more than two years; but I am still often "lost" in your version of Slavic. And "DA" and KAKO and ŠTO are good examples of why I am so lost. It is interesting that there can be several different meanings for the word "DA" - what some of the lesson books call:
DA#1 DA#2, DA#3 itd.

In your examples, my "book" learned Croatian translates them as follow:

Čuo sam da je došao - I heard that he came = SIMPLE PAST TENSE (English)
Čuo sam kako je došao - I heard that he had come = PAST PERFECT TENSE

However, I know that "kako" can give additional "meaning" to the sentence.
This is where I need help to understand what is really meant; and I don't think I will ever master BCS completely.

Thank you for writing about this!

Well it is similar as in Churchslavonic there is DA and JAKO. We only have DA and KAKO.
But Hercegovinians and Montenegrins uses rather ĐE (gdje) instaed of KAKO.
We use ŠTO only like shortly for ZATO ŠTO, JER.

I could explain it to you over German.

Marko je rekao da je Mirko došao. Marko sagte dass Mirko gekommen ist.
Marko je rakao kako je mirko došao. Marko sagte dass Mirko gekommen sei.

So it is used as some conjunktive indikator but you can always use DA instead of it.

Radujem se (zato) ŠTO je Mirko došao.
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wannabeme
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IJzeren Jan
Feb 28 2010, 01:51 AM
Yeah, it's good this comes up. We have, I think, to distinguish between two separate discussions:

1. The conjugation that, as in: "I know (that) you would do it".
AFAIK, East Slavic has a variant of čo/što, West Slavic and Church Slavonic have že, BCS and Slovene have da. If I understand Dražen correctly, South Slavs wouldn't understand že and West Slavs wouldn't understand da. If so, čo would seem the best option. In Slovianski, it seems čo and že are used about equally often.
"Ja znal, čo ti to izdelaš".

2. The conjugation in order to, so that. "He want to the supermarket in order to buy some milk".
Slovianski has IIRC abi and čobi. In most or all languages, this conjunction is formed by combining "that" with the particle "bi", so čobi would be the obvious choice. However, dabi would make sense too, and make Slovianski a little more attactive for South Slavs.

"Da" has indeed several meanings. "Yes", and it can also serve as an optative particle. "Da prijde tvoje krolevstvo".

* one little correction
Churchslavonic uses DA and JAKO and ŽE has the same meaning as in Russian today and is used with words like TOT ŽE, TAKO ŽE, NIKTO ŽE, JAKOŽE.

I would propose to say not čo but što so peaple could distinguish them in such situations.

Ja znam čo ti to kupil. I know that you bought it. I know what you bought.

Or what was my idea first. This žda was not so bad idea but it just kooked awkward. But the principle was good.
It is obviously that we cannot compound all of three words togather in one word.
But we can make to equaly words.
I realy like them.

DAŽE and ČOŽE
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iopq
Administrator
in Russian:
dazse = even
"ja znal dazse kupil" - I knew, and I even bought

sztozse = that which
"ja znal sztozse kupil" - I knew what it was that I bought

szto has both meanings, what and that


Here is the solution:
1. Ja znal zse szto on kupil - I knew that he bought
2. Ja znal szto on kupil - I knew what he bought (also has the meaning of 1. in Russian but we'll use it unambiguously in Slovianski)

this is 100% understandable to Russians, what about others?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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steeven
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Hmmm.....perhaps in Polish (with added text to complete the sentence):

Wiedziałem, że to, co kupił .... to był dla żony.
Wiedziałem, co kupił .... był dla żony.

:blink:
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Hmm, that's an interesting case of ambiguity:

Ja znaju, čo ti izdelal v poslednom lete.
I know what you did last summer.
I know you did it last summer.

As for žda, no, I don't think the principle is good. It's like creating a ZXRAKULA word. Unless such a solution really enhances understandability, we shouldn't do that sort of things in Slovianski.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
Administrator
Even if a word like zxrakula does enhance understandability, it offends my sensibility. I mean, you can use whatever you want, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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