| Dobrodoli na forum Meduslovjanskogo jezyka! elajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete nae forum kako gosť. To znači, e imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne moete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v nau grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. zaloeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v nau grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li u jeste člen, prijavite se, e byste mogli koristati vse monosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,440 Views) | |
| steeven | Feb 19 2010, 11:34 PM Post #46 |
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Well, I just concluded a late night online discussion with 6 of of my kolegi regarding both ŽDA and POLICAJ My question was "Whether we should include 'users' new created and/or preferred words in our dictionaries - or should our dictionaries reflect only the official vocabularies"? The overwhelming answer as that the dictionaries SHOULD include their words, because they are the contemporary uses of words that could only come about as a result of these efforts to create a working "inter-slavic medium of communication" (their words, not mine) What do you good people think?
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| valdi | Feb 20 2010, 10:09 AM Post #47 |
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I don't think we have to include to the dictionary all words created by all groups of speakers. Another group of 6 person can create their own words also. It's normal that peoples use any kind of slang words, they have right to do that. That kind of words will exists always even if dictionaries contain only official words. So why to include all that words ?. Another problem is - how to provide the basic vocabulary to the beginners?. Special English broadcasts all they programs using 1500 of the most frequent english words. In any inter-slavic dictionary with all its synonyms that 1500 basic words will be practically 3500? I think the priority is the basic dictionary without many synonyms. In the future we will see if there's need to include any new words. We don't forget that the idea of interslavic language is recommend and not collect all words from slavic national languages. Valdi |
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| iopq | Feb 20 2010, 10:43 AM Post #48 |
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words like that will absolutely enter the language if they become super popular, they'll be included in the dictionary if they don't become too popular and die out in a couple of years, then they will be replaced by new ones eventually |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| steeven | Feb 20 2010, 08:24 PM Post #49 |
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Well, my own druthers are that I really do not care whether these "popular" group-evolved word forms appear in the dictionary or not. However, my kolegi have stated and would argue that these words should so appear, because a dictionary is intended, in big part, to be a resource to readers so that they can understand what is written. I work with people who are using an interslavic base on a daily (but informal) basis to communicate in a language other than English or their own native tongue. The SLOVKNIGA became vitally important so that the resulting text did not wander off into becoming the latest "pidgin" of the day. And that is, to me, of critical importance. But some words are so important that their energy forces them into common use - and "ŽDA" was one of them. * This is "reality text" ... not "theoretical" I work with a real, live laboratory of text every day - and it definitely colours my perspective and comments on the theoretical postulations here. I think JAN is tuned in to the same understanding. I suppose it is akin to Cicero's distaining of and ignoring the Vulgate, leaving the pure Latin only to be understood ultimately by only a limited club of men of questionable sexual-orientation (tj - the priests). * In the exampled sentence I quoted in my earlier post, on the other hand, the past tense of "to send" was written by a SR/HR. His CZ/SK counterpart would return the same sentence with the past tense formed with the letter "-L" and not the letter " -O ". This would NOT appear in the dictionary grammar section. _____________ It is clear many of you want only the most pure of word forms. |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 21 2010, 12:14 PM Post #50 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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This is a very interesting and essential question, Steeven, and thank you very much for bringing it up. It also touches a curious dichotomy in the very basics of Slovianski itself, because on one hand, Slovianski is based on the improvised, pidginesque languages sometimes used in inter-Slavic contacts, while on the other hand it applies a scientific/empirical approach to creating grammar and vocabulary. In other words, Slovianski is essentially what its users make of it, but run through a filter. It doesn't happen often that anyone writes in "pure Slovianski"; in most cases, it's "slovianskised Polish", "slovianskised Croatian", "slovianskised Russian", etc. Much as I think these variations have value, we should still distinguish between them and the "real" Slovianski. People can of course use whatever they like, but it still remains to be seen how well a certain word would be understood by other Slavs. A Serbian-Slovak interlanguage shouldn't necessarily be understandable to a Russian, for example, but whatever is in the dictionary by all means should. The dictionary, just like the grammar, does not contain all possible words one might encounter, but the words that after some research have been found good enough to be part of the corpus suggested by us. All in all, I think sentences like the one you mentioned, as well as the conversations in the Skype group, provide valuable input. But we shouldn't adopt it blindly. Otherwise, we might end up with lots of words that haven't been researched properly, or with six different words for the conjunction "that". That's my take on it, anyway. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Feb 23 2010, 06:37 PM Post #51 |
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And I also wrote to Steeven (and he probably forgot) that žda causes more associations with ždať - to wait. So it is NOT understandable for Russians, moreover it is confusing for them. So this form - which may work well for Croat-Czech communication - is not useful for all-Slavic communication, therefore it should not be recommended (read: not included to the dictionary) |
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"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Feb 23 2010, 06:49 PM Post #52 |
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Perhaps, Andrej. However, using this logic, then, the Croatian word "DA" ~ "THAT" to Russians would mean "YES" and not "THAT" while "ŽE" could be confused as a short form of "TO WISH" and, so, should be omitted. My consideration here is that if I am reading a text and I come upon the word "ŽDA" - I would like to be able to search that in our dictionary and find that: Aha! "ŽDA" is a LEVEL 4 word that is sometimes used to mean "ŽE" or "DA" or "ЧТО" in my native language. But, because it is shown as LEVEL 4, I understand that this word is not in common usage. Voila! Ponial!
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| wannabeme | Feb 27 2010, 04:46 PM Post #53 |
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ŽDA is also not good for southern slavic spaekers because it if you tell it reminds on ŠTA which means WHAT. Westslavic - že and aby Eastslavic - što, štoby, daby Southslavic- da, da bi Ja čakam da on prijde. Ja čakam že on prijde. Ja čam čo on prijde. A little bit ather meaning. Ja čakam da bi on prišel. Ja čakam že bi on prišel. Ja čakam čo bi on prišel. Hmmm what to do. The most simmilar for all is "dabi" which is actualy da+conditional. So if we we use da+conditional that many poeple would also understand da+present. So it would be the most simple way. I mean its not that I am Southslavic, it has nothing to do with it, it just make sense. Ja čakam da on prijde. I am wainting for him to come. Ja čakam da bi on prišel. I am wainting so he would come. |
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| gossips | Feb 27 2010, 06:03 PM Post #54 |
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Alas, I don't understand it at all Daby is really old form for Russians, and I think, that very few of Russians will understand da without bi, not confusing it with da in the meaning of yes or and/but. Ja czekam da on priszol can be translated by Russian as: I'm still waiting but he's already here. or I'm waiting for (the answer): yes, he has arrived. |
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Vila matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| valdi | Feb 27 2010, 06:39 PM Post #55 |
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To poliaki mogut rozumiti kak "aby"
To ne je dobro rozumene. Valdi |
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| steeven | Feb 27 2010, 06:44 PM Post #56 |
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I believe "the decision" was to use: ŽE ZSE ZXE as the official word for English conjunction "THAT"
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| wannabeme | Feb 27 2010, 11:01 PM Post #57 |
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If I am thinking the right way in BCS there is some more words of "that" meaaning. Radujem se da si došao. (I am happy that you come) Radujem se što si došao. ( I am happy for that you come) Čuo sam da je došao. (I have heard that he came) Čuo sam kako je došao. (I have heard that he came, but it isnt ought to be so - like conjunktive). Also I know that bulgarian uses če in some situations. So Southslavs could understand "što" because Eastslavs has it + Bulgarian and BCS partially. But že sounds nice and Southslavs could learn it and accept it. But što would be more recognizable at the first look. |
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| iopq | Feb 27 2010, 11:03 PM Post #58 |
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Administrator
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же is also used in OCS so it's kind of cool to use it рєчє жє притъчѫ к н҄имъ глагол҄ѧ |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| gossips | Feb 27 2010, 11:34 PM Post #59 |
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Is czo/szto option understandable for West Slavs as subordinate conjunction? |
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Vila matka kuročka, S nej mali kuriati: "Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko, Nesimati hoditi daleko!" | |
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| steeven | Feb 27 2010, 11:38 PM Post #60 |
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Well, I have been working with HR SR people now for more than two years; but I am still often "lost" in your version of Slavic. And "DA" and KAKO and ŠTO are good examples of why I am so lost. It is interesting that there can be several different meanings for the word "DA" - what some of the lesson books call: DA#1 DA#2, DA#3 itd. In your examples, my "book" learned Croatian translates them as follow: Čuo sam da je došao - I heard that he came = SIMPLE PAST TENSE (English) Čuo sam kako je došao - I heard that he had come = PAST PERFECT TENSE However, I know that "kako" can give additional "meaning" to the sentence. This is where I need help to understand what is really meant; and I don't think I will ever master BCS completely. Thank you for writing about this! |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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