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Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se
Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,441 Views)
wannabeme
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IJzeren Jan
Feb 17 2010, 12:26 PM
valdi
Feb 17 2010, 11:37 AM
I agree. Slovianski is recomendation what to use - isn't it?.ďż˝ Why toďż˝ recomend 2 or more options? There are people who want to use one language but other can use some of his own words - that is OK provided that it is not confusion.

I prefer czo/kak/sia but I will accept other possibility - but only one.

Valdi

Valdi, welcome!

You guys certainly have a valid point. And yes, you're right, Slovianski doesn't dictate anything, but merely gives a number of recommendations. Even if we don't officially suggest szto, it's not like a sentence with "szto" is "bad Slovianski" or something.

These three words (+ the first person singular of verbs, cf. ja delam/delaju) are the only places were Slovianski grammar contains optional solutions. What these cases have in common is two things: a) all are very common, and it won't be easy to write a text in Slovianski that won't contain any of them, and B) an ordinary "vote" among the languages involved doesn't solve the issue. Almost every grammatical issue has been solved with voting. But in these cases, the outcome is always more or less 50/50, and while one option may win in terms of number of speakers, the other may win in terms of general understandability, logic, compromise, etymology and so on.

For example, kak has Russian and South-Slavic (177 mln, 3 votes) on its side, while jak is supported by West-Slavic, Ukrainian and Belarussian (124 mln, 3 votes). Jak has etymology on its side, but since 99% of all Ukrainians and Belarussians know Russian anyway, kak would win in terms of speakers.

So, in all these cases, you can't really say one option is "better" than the other. But you are absolutely right, it might be better to make a bold choice than to turn it into a multiple choice, because that only creates confusion for people. Any other opinions?

I agree with you completely.
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Kasjam

gossips
Feb 16 2010, 10:44 PM
Please, guys, don't do it.
There already are many options in Slovianski. If you will create a new dialect every time when you can't reach an agreement, you'll ruin the current lnguage simplicity.

čo/što
jak/kak
se/ся
latin/cyrillic

I guess we already have 2 separate threads of the language - West and South+East and that's bad.

Ja jesu soglosna, czo jedna opcija jest visze jasna i legka dlja upotrebiljov neż mnogo opcii. Ja bi povedala; czo, jak, se. B)
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iopq
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Kasjam
Feb 17 2010, 10:40 PM
gossips
Feb 16 2010, 10:44 PM
Please, guys, don't do it.
There already are many options in Slovianski. If you will create a new dialect every time when you can't reach an agreement, you'll ruin the current lnguage simplicity.

čo/�to
jak/kak
se/ся
latin/cyrillic

I guess we already have 2 separate threads of the language - West and South+East and that's bad.

Ja jesu soglosna, czo jedna opcija jest visze jasna i legka dlja upotrebiljov neĹź mnogo opcii. Ja bi povedala; czo, jak, se. B)

the problem is that I would pick the other three
reasons: czo comes from earlier *czьso while szto comes from *czьto (and so does the Russian form obviously)... Russian czo probably comes from czego
jak loses by population, and population is supposed to tiebreak here...
se doesn't even make sense, why would we make an exception for one word that is completely regular in every language?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"iopq"
 
Kasjam
Feb 17 2010, 10:40 PM
Ja bi povedala; czo, jak, se.  B)

the problem is that I would pick the other three

Hm, if it would depend on me, I'd go for czo, kak, se.

Quote:
 
reasons: czo comes from earlier *czьso while szto comes from *czьto (and so does the Russian form obviously)...

And how would that disqualify czo, then?
BTW, out of curiosity: why doesn't any language have kso?

Quote:
 
Russian czo probably comes from czego

Okay, but that looks more like an argument in favour of czo as well!

Quote:
 
se doesn't even make sense, why would we make an exception for one word that is completely regular in every language?

Well, plenty of reasons, see above. The bottomline, however, is that many people dislike it. And it's not just our task to tell people what's right and what's wrong, we should also listing to the people who use Slovianski or consider using it.

Perhaps we should first answer the question: should we propose multiple variations of such critical words as these three? If we do, we can simply recommend both forms. But if we don't, we have to make a choice. Until we figure this out, there isn't much point in discussing the pros and cons of either possibility.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Moraczewski
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By the way in new orthography sia looks more-less normal, so why not?
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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iopq
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IJzeren Jan
Feb 18 2010, 09:24 AM
"iopq"
 
Kasjam
Feb 17 2010, 10:40 PM
Ja bi povedala; czo, jak, se.  B)

the problem is that I would pick the other three

Hm, if it would depend on me, I'd go for czo, kak, se.

Quote:
 
reasons: czo comes from earlier *czьso while szto comes from *czьto (and so does the Russian form obviously)...

And how would that disqualify czo, then?
BTW, out of curiosity: why doesn't any language have kso?

because it is "kogo" or something like that

Russian czo being from czego means that it is accidentally the same as the West Slavic form czo/co and has another meaning which is czego
Russian g is not very stable between vowels and historically has undergone lenition
jego -> jeho -> jevo
czego -> czeho -> czevo/czo

I disagree there should be any reason to use se instead of sia
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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valdi

Jarvi
Feb 19 2010, 04:05 AM
By the way in new orthography sia looks more-less normal, so why not?

Toż dlia mene czo, kak i sia jesut najdobrejsze.

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Vojta
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valdi
Feb 19 2010, 07:31 AM
Jarvi
Feb 19 2010, 04:05 AM
By the way in new orthography sia looks more-less normal, so why not?

Toż dlia mene czo, kak i sia jesut najdobrejsze.

Problema ne jest, ako li jest KAK ili JAK.
Vsi Slovieni rozumiejut oboje.

KAK jest u bolšej časti s‘vremenih Slovienov (po pričinie russkego jazyka), no JAK-JAKO jest istorične (іакѡ jest v OCS).

Az tu vidu drugu problemu:

Ne jest toliko samo jedni JAK/KAK.

Imajeme

1. roggative: napr. JAKO jesi? JAKO to dielaješ?
2. conditional: napr. Budu pisati, AKO li ty budeš čitati.
3. functional(about purpose): napr. Budeme pisati, JAKOŽE jesi hotiel to vidieti.

Nemyslite li, že treba jest roz‘lišiti tuti tri formy? Univerzalnij jazyk treba byti srozumitielnij.

Podobne to jest s ŠTO/ČO

To jest

1. roggative: napr. ŠTO jest to xyz?
2. reflexive: napr. Vidiel jest auto, IŽE/KOJEŽE bylo velike.
3. relative: My imali mnogo knig, ŽE vy jeste to nemysleli.

V jazyku Slovianski ne roz‘lišujete tuty 3 formy. Imajete samo jedno KAK i jedno ČO za vse.

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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iopq
Administrator
1. Kak jesi / Jak jesi - so doesn't matter
2. This is the problem if we don't have jak
3. weird example I don't really understand what it means
"We will write if you had wanted to have seen it?"

1. see above
2. ktori exists for this purpose
3. I don't understand
"we had a lot of books, that you didn't think"
what does that mean
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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iopq
Feb 19 2010, 09:56 AM
3. I don't understand
"we had a lot of books, that you didn't think"
what does that mean

Me too...

By the way, it seems ako = jesli, and jesli is more common word among MODERN Slavic languages.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
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Vojta
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Ej,

ještie po Engliskem:

1. roggative: napr. JAKO jesi? JAKO to dielaješ? HOW
2. conditional: napr. Budu pisati, AKO li ty budeš čitati. IF
3. functional(about purpose): napr. Budeme pisati, JAKOŽE jesi hotiel to vidieti. AS, BECAUSE OF, BY REASON OF, in the way how You wanted ...


1. roggative: napr. ŠTO jest to xyz? WHAT
2. reflexive: napr. Vidiel jest auto, IŽE/KOJEŽE bylo velike. WHICH,THAT related to "auto"
3. relative: My imali mnogo knig, ŽE vy jeste to nemysleli. THAT related to "my imali"

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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wannabeme
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I dont know about all of this. If we have some principles then we should follow them.

If the principle is that NASAL-E reflexed to JA then it should be in all cases replaced with ja and finito.

Thus say:
1) Oni govorjat and not oni govorjut because it will just make the people asking why, why, why. It doesnt make anything simplier, because if we change here ja with ju then why shouldnt we also replase it in pjat and say pjut what doesnt make any sanse.
So I am saying that we should say Akkusative pers. pron. 1st. menja and say short form mja. also sebja and sja. If we say mene and me, than let us say sebe and se and pet and let us change nasal-e reflex to -e. And no more questions.

2) If all question pronouns has K- like kto, ktori, kogda, kam, kuda, kolko, why shouldnt be also expected kak. It does make sense to use kak.

3) About čo and što. Etymology kto comes from koto, kogo, komu, and čto komes from četo, čego (or česo), čemu, in the soft position o and e became halfvocals and got lost. So we had čto which is turns to automaticly to što because of this way its more simple to pronounce it. Čo and co they made the same thing, because of easier pronounciation they have dropt t so č hasnt got to change. The simmilar thing made BSC thus, dropt t from kto to say it easier or they ve made the metataze to tko. It could be that Westslavs made the same thing with što-->tšo and if you say it loud it automaticly turns to čo. Čo is used by Westslavs and in street Russian. Što is used by Southslavs and by Eastslavs. Normaly would što win by the number of spaeker and by analogy kTO kOGO, šTO, čEGO but do the Westslavs understand što? Do the Southslavs understand čo. Eastslavs understand both I would say but if Slovianski sounds like street langauge, what would be the first impresion of ,let us say "high educated" Russians. We all know their mantality.
So my proposal, let us use both equaly or let us just write čto which would be understood by all poeple for shure (and no metter how someone likes to pronounce it što or čo). After all, this is the point of Slovianski " to be usefull and not to be pretty and look metrosexual .
The same thing I learnt at my kung fu training, kung fu should be ussefull and not spectacular.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Drazsen"
 
I dont know about all of this. If we have some principles then we should follow them.

True that. But there's also something like belly feeling and common sense. It's good and even necessary to have these principles, but there are also situations possible when a different solution is obviously better. In such case we shouldn't be too dogmatic about the rules, I'd say.

Quote:
 
If the principle is that NASAL-E reflexed to JA then it should be in all cases replaced with ja and finito.

Also true. Unless, for example, even Polish uses e instead of nasal-e or ja. Regular derivation from Common Slavic is a powerful tool, but not an iron rule; it should be used with caution.

Quote:
 
Thus say:
1) Oni govorjat and not oni govorjut because it will just make the people asking why, why, why. It doesnt make anything simplier, because if we change here ja with ju then why shouldnt we also replase it in pjat and say pjut what doesnt make any sanse.

The third person plural is a tough one, because almost every language has multiple forms, depending on verbal classes. Slovianski has no verbal classes or conjugations, and we certainly shouldn't make grammar any more complicated than it already is. So we simply inventarised all different endings and picked the most common/understandable one. "Oni govorjut" may sound wrong to some, but "oni mogat" would even sound wronger to some more. Point is, after all, that the ultimate choice is understandable, not that it produces a form similar to their natural one.

Quote:
 
So I am saying that we should say Akkusative pers. pron. 1st. menja and say short form mja. also sebja and sja. If we say mene and me, than let us say sebe and se and pet and let us change nasal-e reflex to -e. And no more questions.

No no, the accusative "mene" doesn't come from C.Sl. menę, but from mene, without any nasal. See http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/slavic_pronouns.html.
You are basically right regarding the short forms me and te. Yes, logically they should generate mia/tia. However, there's one problem. Not every language has these short forms: in fact, most of the languages that generate ę > ja don't. And as far as they do, only Rusyn and Slovak use mia/tia, all the others use me/te. This seems to be a good example of a situation when common sense should prevail over strict observation of the rules (which, mind, are guidelines rather than rules anyway).

Quote:
 
2) If all question pronouns has K- like kto, ktori, kogda, kam, kuda, kolko, why shouldnt be also expected kak. It does make sense to use kak.

That is absolutely true!

Quote:
 
3) About čo and što.
[...] but do the Westslavs understand ĹĄto?

Probably, because most people know THAT much about Russian. I think to the average West-Slav it might strenghten the impression that Slovianski is just some sort of modified Russian, an instrument of Russian imperialism! :D

Quote:
 
Do the Southslavs understand čo.

Well, undoubtedly better than the West-Slavs would understand što because all have the genitive čego.

Quote:
 
Eastslavs understand both I would say but if Slovianski sounds like street langauge, what would be the first impresion of ,let us say "high educated" Russians. We all know their mantality.

That's beside the point. The question is: would they understand it?

Quote:
 
So my proposal, let us use both equaly or let us just write čto which would be understood by all poeple for shure (and no metter how someone likes to pronounce it što or čo). After all, this is the point of Slovianski " to be usefull and not to be pretty and look metrosexual .
The same thing I learnt at my kung fu training, kung fu should be ussefull and not spectacular.

Hehehe. Exactly! Well, I can surely live with both options. My main issue with što is not that it looks Russian, but that it's far more irregular than čo.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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steeven
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wannabeme
Feb 19 2010, 02:18 PM
After all, this is the point of Slovianski " to be usefull and not to be pretty and look metrosexual.

B)

American English advertising expression:
(sorry)

"Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle"

My kolegi - especially those in Europe who daily use Interslavic in emails back and forth - are VERY fussy/particular about the appearance of constructed words - and will actually change a word form, if they do not like how it looks or how it sounds.

Jarvi and I just had a discussion on this in the last 24 hours at SLOVKNIG - regarding the word for "POLICEMAN" - which is different between CZ/SK and HR/SR.

They (my cz/sk & hr/sr kolegi) finally came to an "agreement" with German version :( of: "POLICAJ" because it "sounds" and "looks" nice (tj: "pretty and metrosexual" ), however, I suggested yesterday that they use "POLICIJNIK" as the official word.

My point is that the ultimate "consumers" / "users" of the interslavic words, will indeed use what they like best - and there will be certain "buzz" words - tj - certain "specific, emotional" words that they will choose - even if that means creating a new form between and among themselves!

:blink: :D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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steeven
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ŽE + DA = "ŽDA"

Here is an even better example of how the ultimate consumers/users will ignore official words and use what they want to use:

My HR/SR & CZ/SK kolegi in our Praha and Zagreb/Belgrade offices communicate daily with each other in interslavic. I usually do not see these communications (email), but sometimes they come to me in "copied" text.

Here is an example of copied text I received (which I sent to Jarvi, because he wanted to see an example of how actual users are working with the slavic conlangs):

"Hvala na vijest. Ja poslao svoj email na Petar i poslao slepja kopira u tebe, kao i inih liudi ktorje piĹĄut vijnĹĄe na nih, tako Ĺžda bi vidiĹĄ spravedliv jeseme "

Please look at "new" word " Şda ", which is a combination of CZ/SK " ŽE " + HR/SR " DA "

= "ŽDA"

meaning, in English, "THAT"
(sometimes they just use non-hacek letter "z" also)

And yes there are several other interesting anomalies in the exampled sentence.

My point is that many words will be created out of actual use of a conlang - especially when different Slavic speakers are the communicators.

Will we ignore = "ŽDA" from our dictionaries?

The "vox populi" always prevails ultimately.
For better, or, for worse.

;)
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDŽUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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