| Dobrodoli na forum Meduslovjanskogo jezyka! elajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete nae forum kako gosť. To znači, e imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne moete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v nau grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. zaloeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v nau grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li u jeste člen, prijavite se, e byste mogli koristati vse monosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,441 Views) | |
| wannabeme | Feb 17 2010, 02:43 PM Post #31 |
|
I agree with you completely. |
![]() |
|
| Kasjam | Feb 18 2010, 06:40 AM Post #32 |
|
Ja jesu soglosna, czo jedna opcija jest visze jasna i legka dlja upotrebiljov neż mnogo opcii. Ja bi povedala; czo, jak, se.
|
![]() |
|
| iopq | Feb 18 2010, 06:58 AM Post #33 |
|
Administrator
|
the problem is that I would pick the other three reasons: czo comes from earlier *czŃso while szto comes from *czŃto (and so does the Russian form obviously)... Russian czo probably comes from czego jak loses by population, and population is supposed to tiebreak here... se doesn't even make sense, why would we make an exception for one word that is completely regular in every language? |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Feb 18 2010, 05:24 PM Post #34 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
Hm, if it would depend on me, I'd go for czo, kak, se.
And how would that disqualify czo, then? BTW, out of curiosity: why doesn't any language have kso?
Okay, but that looks more like an argument in favour of czo as well!
Well, plenty of reasons, see above. The bottomline, however, is that many people dislike it. And it's not just our task to tell people what's right and what's wrong, we should also listing to the people who use Slovianski or consider using it. Perhaps we should first answer the question: should we propose multiple variations of such critical words as these three? If we do, we can simply recommend both forms. But if we don't, we have to make a choice. Until we figure this out, there isn't much point in discussing the pros and cons of either possibility. |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| Moraczewski | Feb 19 2010, 04:05 AM Post #35 |
|
By the way in new orthography sia looks more-less normal, so why not? |
|
"I nenít pochyby, e kdokoli chce a umí, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wemoně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebr osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| iopq | Feb 19 2010, 05:30 AM Post #36 |
|
Administrator
|
because it is "kogo" or something like that Russian czo being from czego means that it is accidentally the same as the West Slavic form czo/co and has another meaning which is czego Russian g is not very stable between vowels and historically has undergone lenition jego -> jeho -> jevo czego -> czeho -> czevo/czo I disagree there should be any reason to use se instead of sia |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| valdi | Feb 19 2010, 07:31 AM Post #37 |
|
Toż dlia mene czo, kak i sia jesut najdobrejsze. |
![]() |
|
| Vojta | Feb 19 2010, 08:40 AM Post #38 |
|
Problema ne jest, ako li jest KAK ili JAK. Vsi Slovieni rozumiejut oboje. KAK jest u bolej časti svremenih Slovienov (po pričinie russkego jazyka), no JAK-JAKO jest istorične (іакѡ jest v OCS). Az tu vidu drugu problemu: Ne jest toliko samo jedni JAK/KAK. Imajeme 1. roggative: napr. JAKO jesi? JAKO to dielaje? 2. conditional: napr. Budu pisati, AKO li ty bude čitati. 3. functional(about purpose): napr. Budeme pisati, JAKOE jesi hotiel to vidieti. Nemyslite li, e treba jest rozliiti tuti tri formy? Univerzalnij jazyk treba byti srozumitielnij. Podobne to jest s TO/ČO To jest 1. roggative: napr. TO jest to xyz? 2. reflexive: napr. Vidiel jest auto, IE/KOJEE bylo velike. 3. relative: My imali mnogo knig, E vy jeste to nemysleli. V jazyku Slovianski ne rozliujete tuty 3 formy. Imajete samo jedno KAK i jedno ČO za vse. V. |
|
Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
![]() |
|
| iopq | Feb 19 2010, 09:56 AM Post #39 |
|
Administrator
|
1. Kak jesi / Jak jesi - so doesn't matter 2. This is the problem if we don't have jak 3. weird example I don't really understand what it means "We will write if you had wanted to have seen it?" 1. see above 2. ktori exists for this purpose 3. I don't understand "we had a lot of books, that you didn't think" what does that mean |
|
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
![]() |
|
| Moraczewski | Feb 19 2010, 11:11 AM Post #40 |
|
Me too... By the way, it seems ako = jesli, and jesli is more common word among MODERN Slavic languages. |
|
"I nenít pochyby, e kdokoli chce a umí, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wemoně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebr osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| Vojta | Feb 19 2010, 12:50 PM Post #41 |
|
Ej, jetie po Engliskem: 1. roggative: napr. JAKO jesi? JAKO to dielaje? HOW 2. conditional: napr. Budu pisati, AKO li ty bude čitati. IF 3. functional(about purpose): napr. Budeme pisati, JAKOE jesi hotiel to vidieti. AS, BECAUSE OF, BY REASON OF, in the way how You wanted ... 1. roggative: napr. TO jest to xyz? WHAT 2. reflexive: napr. Vidiel jest auto, IE/KOJEE bylo velike. WHICH,THAT related to "auto" 3. relative: My imali mnogo knig, E vy jeste to nemysleli. THAT related to "my imali" V. |
|
Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
![]() |
|
| wannabeme | Feb 19 2010, 02:18 PM Post #42 |
|
I dont know about all of this. If we have some principles then we should follow them. If the principle is that NASAL-E reflexed to JA then it should be in all cases replaced with ja and finito. Thus say: 1) Oni govorjat and not oni govorjut because it will just make the people asking why, why, why. It doesnt make anything simplier, because if we change here ja with ju then why shouldnt we also replase it in pjat and say pjut what doesnt make any sanse. So I am saying that we should say Akkusative pers. pron. 1st. menja and say short form mja. also sebja and sja. If we say mene and me, than let us say sebe and se and pet and let us change nasal-e reflex to -e. And no more questions. 2) If all question pronouns has K- like kto, ktori, kogda, kam, kuda, kolko, why shouldnt be also expected kak. It does make sense to use kak. 3) About Äo and ĹĄto. Etymology kto comes from koto, kogo, komu, and Äto komes from Äeto, Äego (or Äeso), Äemu, in the soft position o and e became halfvocals and got lost. So we had Äto which is turns to automaticly to ĹĄto because of this way its more simple to pronounce it. Äo and co they made the same thing, because of easier pronounciation they have dropt t so Ä hasnt got to change. The simmilar thing made BSC thus, dropt t from kto to say it easier or they ve made the metataze to tko. It could be that Westslavs made the same thing with ĹĄto-->tĹĄo and if you say it loud it automaticly turns to Äo. Äo is used by Westslavs and in street Russian. Ĺ to is used by Southslavs and by Eastslavs. Normaly would ĹĄto win by the number of spaeker and by analogy kTO kOGO, ĹĄTO, ÄEGO but do the Westslavs understand ĹĄto? Do the Southslavs understand Äo. Eastslavs understand both I would say but if Slovianski sounds like street langauge, what would be the first impresion of ,let us say "high educated" Russians. We all know their mantality. So my proposal, let us use both equaly or let us just write Äto which would be understood by all poeple for shure (and no metter how someone likes to pronounce it ĹĄto or Äo). After all, this is the point of Slovianski " to be usefull and not to be pretty and look metrosexual . The same thing I learnt at my kung fu training, kung fu should be ussefull and not spectacular. |
![]() |
|
| IJzeren Jan | Feb 19 2010, 05:31 PM Post #43 |
|
Jan van Steenbergen
|
True that. But there's also something like belly feeling and common sense. It's good and even necessary to have these principles, but there are also situations possible when a different solution is obviously better. In such case we shouldn't be too dogmatic about the rules, I'd say.
Also true. Unless, for example, even Polish uses e instead of nasal-e or ja. Regular derivation from Common Slavic is a powerful tool, but not an iron rule; it should be used with caution.
The third person plural is a tough one, because almost every language has multiple forms, depending on verbal classes. Slovianski has no verbal classes or conjugations, and we certainly shouldn't make grammar any more complicated than it already is. So we simply inventarised all different endings and picked the most common/understandable one. "Oni govorjut" may sound wrong to some, but "oni mogat" would even sound wronger to some more. Point is, after all, that the ultimate choice is understandable, not that it produces a form similar to their natural one.
No no, the accusative "mene" doesn't come from C.Sl. menÄ, but from mene, without any nasal. See http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/slavic_pronouns.html. You are basically right regarding the short forms me and te. Yes, logically they should generate mia/tia. However, there's one problem. Not every language has these short forms: in fact, most of the languages that generate Ä > ja don't. And as far as they do, only Rusyn and Slovak use mia/tia, all the others use me/te. This seems to be a good example of a situation when common sense should prevail over strict observation of the rules (which, mind, are guidelines rather than rules anyway).
That is absolutely true!
Probably, because most people know THAT much about Russian. I think to the average West-Slav it might strenghten the impression that Slovianski is just some sort of modified Russian, an instrument of Russian imperialism! ![]()
Well, undoubtedly better than the West-Slavs would understand ĹĄto because all have the genitive Äego.
That's beside the point. The question is: would they understand it?
Hehehe. Exactly! Well, I can surely live with both options. My main issue with ĹĄto is not that it looks Russian, but that it's far more irregular than Äo. |
|
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Feb 19 2010, 06:14 PM Post #44 |
|
American English advertising expression: (sorry) "Don't sell the steak, sell the sizzle" My kolegi - especially those in Europe who daily use Interslavic in emails back and forth - are VERY fussy/particular about the appearance of constructed words - and will actually change a word form, if they do not like how it looks or how it sounds. Jarvi and I just had a discussion on this in the last 24 hours at SLOVKNIG - regarding the word for "POLICEMAN" - which is different between CZ/SK and HR/SR. They (my cz/sk & hr/sr kolegi) finally came to an "agreement" with German version of: "POLICAJ" because it "sounds" and "looks" nice (tj: "pretty and metrosexual" ), however, I suggested yesterday that they use "POLICIJNIK" as the official word. My point is that the ultimate "consumers" / "users" of the interslavic words, will indeed use what they like best - and there will be certain "buzz" words - tj - certain "specific, emotional" words that they will choose - even if that means creating a new form between and among themselves!
|
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| steeven | Feb 19 2010, 06:37 PM Post #45 |
|
ŽE + DA = "ŽDA" Here is an even better example of how the ultimate consumers/users will ignore official words and use what they want to use: My HR/SR & CZ/SK kolegi in our Praha and Zagreb/Belgrade offices communicate daily with each other in interslavic. I usually do not see these communications (email), but sometimes they come to me in "copied" text. Here is an example of copied text I received (which I sent to Jarvi, because he wanted to see an example of how actual users are working with the slavic conlangs): "Hvala na vijest. Ja poslao svoj email na Petar i poslao slepja kopira u tebe, kao i inih liudi ktorje piťut vijnťe na nih, tako Şda bi vidiť spravedliv jeseme " Please look at "new" word " Şda ", which is a combination of CZ/SK " ŽE " + HR/SR " DA " = "ŽDA" meaning, in English, "THAT" (sometimes they just use non-hacek letter "z" also) And yes there are several other interesting anomalies in the exampled sentence. My point is that many words will be created out of actual use of a conlang - especially when different Slavic speakers are the communicators. Will we ignore = "ŽDA" from our dictionaries? The "vox populi" always prevails ultimately. For better, or, for worse.
|
|
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic » |



an ordinary "vote" among the languages involved doesn't solve the issue. Almost every grammatical issue has been solved with voting. But in these cases, the outcome is always more or less 50/50, and while one option may win in terms of number of speakers, the other may win in terms of general understandability, logic, compromise, etymology and so on.




of: "POLICAJ" because it "sounds" and "looks" nice (tj: "pretty and metrosexual" ), however, I suggested yesterday that they use "POLICIJNIK" as the official word.

2:15 PM Jul 11