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Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se
Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,442 Views)
Moraczewski
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But Slovianski is primarily written language, so I think the words should be recognizeable from written form mostly. And thus "se" will be recognized by majority of readers, including all Southern Slavs, Czechs and Poles. While for Eastern Slavs "sa" is not a bit more recognizeable than "se", and "se" at least can be associated with "sebe".
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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iopq
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using that logic, we should have ся and se because in Cyrillic ся is more recognizable
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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This is what I'm actually using, although it is against the design principles and can't be taken as "official" solution.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Feb 14 2010, 09:24 AM
using that logic, we should have ся and se because in Cyrillic ся is more recognizable

Writing sa instead of sja/s'a/śa is of course not an option.

If we take a vote, se is the winner anyway. It is omnipresent in South Slavic and Czech (and Lower Sorbian), while sja is used in East Slavic only.

Russian ся, са (because in normal Russian it's pronounced [sa], I've added that as an option)
Belarussian ся, ца
Ukrainian ся
Rusyn ся
Polish się
Lower Sorbian se
Upper Sorbian so
Czech se
Slovak sa
Slovene se
Croatian se
Serbian со
Macedonian со
Bulgarian со

Which means:
se - 2.5 votes (South Slavic, Czech)
sja - 1.25 votes (East Slavic)
się - 1 vote (Polish)
sa - 1 vote (Slovak, spoken Russian)
ca - 0.25 vote (Belarussian)

Even if we discount the Russian vote for "sa", se is still the winner. I have programmed the Voting Machine in such way that it automatically changes Polish ję to ja, but that is based on the convention that Common Slavic ę becomes ja anyway. The reason we do that is not that it wins numerically, but that e can be the reflex of several other things already: ja's role is to disambiguate. For a Pole, however, e would be equally understandable, perhaps even more so.

However, there is no ambiguity between se and sja; both are equally understandable.
se wins in terms of votes, it is more aesthetical according to most, and it is definitely more practical in terms of orthography;
sja wins in terms of no. of speakers, and it is the logical outcome of Slovianski's internal logic.

I'd call it a hard choice. We might of course go for the easy solution: treat both forms equally. But we would still have to pick a primary form: even if we add both se and sja to the dictionary, we can't have double entries for every single reflexive verb.

EDIT: I've enabled the possibility to create polls and made one for this particular subject. Please use it! :)
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iopq
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voting in this way is stupid because you'll end up voting on each particular word

it's like trying to decide reflexes of PSl. -or-
one word will have -ra- because Russian uses the Church Slavonic form so it wins, another word will be -oro- because it doesn't exist in south slavic so east outvotes west, and one word will have -ro- because it exists in every language and we decide for a middle form

same thing here, it just HAPPENS that Russian/Belarusian SOMETIMES have the sa forms
that's not even true all of the time: готовимся is perfectly soft

it just so happens that the reflex in Slovak is sa in THIS word, it's sometimes it's sia
let me remind you that the vote for nasals is as following:
2.5 votes for ję -> jan -> ja and majority of population
2.5 votes for ję -> je -> je and minority of population
1 vote for keeping the nasals

it's like trying to vote on "enemy" and you get vrag because Russian uses the OCS form
that's ridiculous, every person trying to come up with a dictionary will come to different forms because one person will prefer internal consistency, another person will prefer the most common form, etc.
not only will we never get done, the resulting language will be impossible to learn because it has reflexes all over the place

by the principle "you give an inch and they take a mile" I cannot agree with this at all because next thing you know, people will start coming up with reasons why other common words should be easier on the eyes or easier to pronounce
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Iopq"
 
voting in this way is stupid because you'll end up voting on each particular word

I just added the vote here as a bit of information, not necessarily as the thing that should decide everything.

Quote:
 
it's like trying to decide reflexes of PSl. -or-
one word will have -ra- because Russian uses the Church Slavonic form so it wins, another word will be -oro- because it doesn't exist in south slavic so east outvotes west, and one word will have -ro- because it exists in every language and we decide for a middle form

That's not how it works. But keep in mind that the system of regular derivation is a guideline, not an iron rule, so there's no need to be dogmatic about it. There are cases when even Polish has -ra-. When Russian uses Church Slavonic and Polish has -ra-, it would be foolish to insist on -ro-.

And, even if the entire East Slavic vote goes to sja, it is still in a minority position.

Quote:
 
by the principle "you give an inch and they take a mile" I cannot agree with this at all because next thing you know, people will start coming up with reasons why other common words should be easier on the eyes or easier to pronounce

Now, this is pretty much a "slippery slope" kind of reasoning. One argument I've heard frequently in discussions with Polish catholics is this: "If we legalise aboration in the first month, legalisation during the whole pregnancy is only a minor step, and we'll end up killing each other on the streets". We are discussing one word here. Right now, I can't think of any other example where the same sort of question might emerge.
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iopq
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next thing you know we'll be discussing a country called "Vengrija" when our internal language logic demands "(V)ugorska"
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Moraczewski
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iopq
Feb 15 2010, 12:33 AM
next thing you know we'll be discussing a country called "Vengrija" when our internal language logic demands "(V)ugorska"

We have Madjarska for Hungary and that's quite OK.
By the way Hungary is not so frequent word as sja.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

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Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Feb 15 2010, 12:33 AM
next thing you know we'll be discussing a country called "Vengrija" when our internal language logic demands "(V)ugorska"

Well, to tell you the truth, I have found myself wondering who picked the form "Vengrija" and why. The proto-form must have been something like ǫgъrija, which according to our own internal logic would generate Vugrija and vugorski. But then, I haven't looked at the forms in other languages, all I know is that Polish has Węgry, Ukrainian has Uhorszczyna, and Russian has Vengrija which was presumably imported from Polish.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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wannabeme
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Hello, I am Dražen and I am new here. I am going to be happy if I can help the development of Slovianski with my posts.

ся is Eastslavic feature + Slovak
се or latin se is Southslavic feature + Czech
Polish has kept the nasals and it sounds like o-nasal but is written as a (but in many cases it changed the plase with e nasal like in the pronound sie)

We cannot be fair enough or wrong what ever we choose to use.
We can vote here but it wont be faire too because the number of westslavic population here can be bigger than the same from southslavic or eastslavic and vice versa.

It is very possible and i can admit it that the spaeker of -e can better understand -ja than vice versa. But I garantie you that no ordinary spaeker of -e would ever know where to write -ja instaed of -e because -e can be from "jat" and -e can be from "e-nasal". On the other hand spaeker of -ja can more easely change -ja with -e with no diffuculty but he would find it difficult to understand so easely.

How come I know that spaeker of -e would never knew where to write -ja and where -e? Because in BCS there is two varities to pronounce the "jat" as hard e or es je (and ije if "jat" ist long). But Serbians and Croatians just cannot learn for all those years where to write e and where je. They jsut mix it up. It was the same way by Serbian Priests and learners of churchslavonic. They just wrote wrote mixed up jat and nasal-e writing both as -ja which was incorrect.

So I see its going to be a big problem for Southslavs and probably Czechs.
My solution would be, just like Szech and Slovakian do. They are almost the same but ones say -e and the others -ja and there is no problem. Why couldnt we also make such solution that there is two dialekts which would use -e or -ja?

On uči sja slovjanski jazik uže vjače pjat let.
On uči se slovenski jezik uže veče pet let.

Он учи ся словянски язик уже вяче пят лет.
Он учи се словенски език уже вече пет лет.

For my ears -ja sounds nice but perhaps because i spaek russian and churchslavonic it sounds to me naturaly and i know where to write it.
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Jan van Steenbergen
"Wannabeme"
 
Hello, I am Dražen and I am new here. I am going to be happy if I can help the development of Slovianski with my posts.

Welcome! Glad you've made it here! :)

Quote:
 
ся is Eastslavic feature + Slovak
се or latin se is Southslavic feature + Czech
Polish has kept the nasals and it sounds like o-nasal but is written as a (but in many cases it changed the plase with e nasal like in the pronound sie)

Actually, this particular word, się, is (almost?) never pronounced with a nasal, but usually as [s^jE]. That is also the usual way of pronouncing final ę in general, although in less cultivated speech it is sometimes pronounced as [Em] (cf. the famous Wałęsa quote: "Nie chcem, ale muszem").

Quote:
 
We can vote here but it wont be faire too because the number of westslavic population here can be bigger than the same from southslavic or eastslavic and vice versa.

Yes and no. It should be emphasized that Slovianski is a compromise between languages, not a compromise between the people who create it. Because Slovianski has pretty well-defined design principles, it is almost always possible to take objective decisions, so that the language creates itself, as it were. A "vote" is of course not a real vote, but mostly a poll, an inventarisation of opinions. At last, it's the arguments that count. But it is also good to know if there's support for a proposal or not.
Luckily, from the preliminaty results I conclude that people use their common sense, and it's not just Russians voting for SJA, South Slavs voting for SE, etc.

Quote:
 
It is very possible and i can admit it that the spaeker of -e can better understand -ja than vice versa. But I garantie you that no ordinary spaeker of -e would ever know where to write -ja instaed of -e because -e can be from "jat" and -e can be from "e-nasal". On the other hand spaeker of -ja can more easely change -ja with -e with no diffuculty but he would find it difficult to understand so easely.

You know, it's a funny thing you mention here. JA would be better from the point of view of the reader, E from the point of view of the writer. Somehow, I've never looked at it that way!
I should mention, however, that the primary purpose of Slovianski is understandability, so from that point of view JA is indeed better. Let's face it, we want to make speaking and writing Slovianski as easy as we can, but that won't change the fact that you can't write a text in a language you haven't learned without the help of a dictionary and a grammar.

Cheers,
Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Jan van Steenbergen
Now that we have 10 votes cast, here's a preliminary evaluation of the results.

This much is clear: the current solution (SJA only) is supported by 1/10. No less than 8 votes would prefer it over SJA in the Latin alphabet. In Cyrillic, the situation looks differently: 8 votes would like to see it preserved in Cyrillic, while there are still 6 votes that would give it the predominant position over SE in Cyrillic.

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised about the "success" of option 5 (SE in Latin and SJA in Cyrillic), but on the other hand, it makes perfect sense. SJA is ugly in Latin, and besides, it is used NOWHERE in Latin-writing territory (not counting Slovak SA). In non-Serbian Cyrillic, SJA looks perfectly normally and has the support of all languages involved. In Serbian Cyrillic, SE would the preferred solution too, since both Serbian and Macedonian use it.

Obviously, we cannot "forbid" something in one orthography that is "mandatory" in another. Therefore, the solution I'm most inclined to, based on these conclusions, is the following: SE is the recommended form in Latinica and Serbian Kirilica, and SJA in non-Serbian Kirilica, while in all three orthographies the other form remains optional. I'm aware of the fact that we are setting a dangerous precedent here, and we should avoid doing the same sort of thing with other words, but in this particular case, I think it is perfectly justified. Besides, it's a solution a transliteration program can handle very easily.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

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gossips
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Please, guys, don't do it.
There already are many options in Slovianski. If you will create a new dialect every time when you can't reach an agreement, you'll ruin the current lnguage simplicity.

čo/što
jak/kak
se/ся
latin/cyrillic

I guess we already have 2 separate threads of the language - West and South+East and that's bad.
Višla matka kuročka,
S nej mali kuriati:
"Ko-ko-ko, Ko-ko-ko,
Nesimati hoditi daleko!"
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valdi

gossips
Feb 16 2010, 10:44 PM
Please, guys, don't do it.
There already are many options in Slovianski. If you will create a new dialect every time when you can't reach an agreement, you'll ruin the current lnguage simplicity.

čo/što
jak/kak
se/ся
latin/cyrillic

I guess we already have 2 separate threads of the language - West and South+East and that's bad.

I agree. Slovianski is recomendation what to use - isn't it?. Why to recomend 2 or more options? There are people who want to use one language but other can use some of his own words - that is OK provided that it is not confusion.

I prefer czo/kak/sia but I will accept other possibility - but only one.

Valdi
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Jan van Steenbergen
valdi
Feb 17 2010, 11:37 AM
I agree. Slovianski is recomendation what to use - isn't it?.  Why to  recomend 2 or more options? There are people who want to use one language but other can use some of his own words - that is OK provided that it is not confusion.

I prefer czo/kak/sia but I will accept other possibility - but only one.

Valdi

Valdi, welcome!

You guys certainly have a valid point. And yes, you're right, Slovianski doesn't dictate anything, but merely gives a number of recommendations. Even if we don't officially suggest szto, it's not like a sentence with "szto" is "bad Slovianski" or something.

These three words (+ the first person singular of verbs, cf. ja delam/delaju) are the only places were Slovianski grammar contains optional solutions. What these cases have in common is two things: a) all are very common, and it won't be easy to write a text in Slovianski that won't contain any of them, and B) an ordinary "vote" among the languages involved doesn't solve the issue. Almost every grammatical issue has been solved with voting. But in these cases, the outcome is always more or less 50/50, and while one option may win in terms of number of speakers, the other may win in terms of general understandability, logic, compromise, etymology and so on.

For example, kak has Russian and South-Slavic (177 mln, 3 votes) on its side, while jak is supported by West-Slavic, Ukrainian and Belarussian (124 mln, 3 votes). Jak has etymology on its side, but since 99% of all Ukrainians and Belarussians know Russian anyway, kak would win in terms of speakers.

So, in all these cases, you can't really say one option is "better" than the other. But you are absolutely right, it might be better to make a bold choice than to turn it into a multiple choice, because that only creates confusion for people. Any other opinions?
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