Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti.
Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности.
Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit.

Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno.

Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно.

You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community!
Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti:
Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности:
If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
What's your preferred solution for the reflexive pronoun?
SJA only 2 (12.5%)
SE only 2 (12.5%)
allow both, but use SJA in the dictionary 3 (18.8%)
allow both, but use SE in the dictionary 4 (25%)
use SE in Latinica and SJA in Cyrillic 5 (31.3%)
Total Votes: 16
Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se
Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,439 Views)
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

There are many complaints about sja

Yes, it strictly follows the design rules as regular ę reflex.
But it looks strange (at least in latin).

I'd suggest to return to se officially although it will be harder for East Slavs.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Jarvi
Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM
There are many complaints about sja

Yes, it strictly follows the design rules as regular ę reflex.
But it looks strange (at least in latin).

I'd suggest to return to se officially although it will be harder for East Slavs.

I can live with that. Indeed, sja is a word that appears VERY often, and it doesn't really make any text look good. In fact, se is what I used in Slovianski-N before it was changed, and I still think it'd look better.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
sja does look weird
that's why I use s'a
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vojta
Member Avatar

iopq
Feb 13 2010, 04:51 AM
sja does look weird
that's why I use s'a

reflexive pronoun is similar to personal Ja/Az and Ty

the most used is accusative (sja in SL now), but dative is also frequently used

think also about dative and other cases!

in NS we have

az/ja, mne, mnie/mi, mne, mnie, mnoj
ty, tebe, tebie/ti, tebe, tebie, teboj
-, sebe, sebie/si, sebe/se, sebie, seboj


for example

EN: I made myself a book (myself is dative, book in accusative)
NS: Dielah sebie knigu.
SL: ????

EN: I see myself in a mirror (myself is accusative)
NS: Vidu sebe/se v z`rkalu.
SL : Vidu sja v zerkalu. ?????

reflexive pronoun should share the sentence subject.

EN:I wash myself (who washes is the same who is washed)
NS: Myju se.
SL: Miju sja. ????

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Feb 13 2010, 04:51 AM
sja does look weird
that's why I use s'a

The rule for j/' is basically:
- j comes word-initially, after a vowel, or after a consonant and before a vowel
- apostrophe comes after a consonant at the end of the word, or between two consonants.

In Serbian Cyrillic, the outcome would be сја anyway, because Serbian has no hard sign.

Besides, I've seen many discussions about Slovianski on the Internet, both among users and others. We have to face the fact that most people hate these apostrophes. We should therefore try to get rid of them as much as we can.

Vojta
 
think also about dative and other cases!

in NS we have

az/ja, mne, mnie/mi, mne, mnie, mnoj
ty, tebe, tebie/ti, tebe, tebie, teboj
-, sebe, sebie/si, sebe/se, sebie, seboj


Well, Slovianski has:
ja, mene, mne/mi, mene, mne, mnoju
ti, tebe, tobe/ti, tebe, tobe, toboju
-, sebe, sobe/si, sebe, sobe, soboju

(I notice that according to the grammar the locative of ti is tebe, while the dative is tobe, so that's probably an error)

Quote:
 
for example

EN: I made myself a book (myself is dative, book in accusative)
NS: Dielah sebie knigu.

SL: Ja izdelal sobe knigu.

Quote:
 
EN: I see myself in a mirror (myself is accusative)
NS: Vidu sebe/se v z`rkalu.
SL : Vidu sja v zerkalu. ?????

SL: Ja vidžu/vidim se/sja v zerkale.

Quote:
 
reflexive pronoun should share the sentence subject.

EN:I wash myself (who washes is the same who is washed)
NS: Myju se.
SL: Miju sja. ????

Ja miju/mijem se/sja.

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
actually if you look at the voting soft s has 3 votes and population majority, (east slavic, polish) so we just write сьа in Serbian cyrillic

this also implies that loś is declined as a soft noun as in polish (los - lośa) than as a hard noun as in czech

I don't think people would have a problem with it if it's spelled śa for the time being, but I have a different long-term solution

I don't envision the correct font in Slovianski to have an apostrophe
More like a Czech hacek when it's next to an l or a d, but like that on top of all letters... somewhat reminicent of Polish as well
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
actually if you look at the voting soft s has 3 votes and population majority, (east slavic, polish) so we just write сьа in Serbian cyrillic

No, because there's no ь in Serbian.

Quote:
 
I don't think people would have a problem with it if it's spelled śa for the time being, but I have a different long-term solution

I don't envision the correct font in Slovianski to have an apostrophe
More like a Czech hacek when it's next to an l or a d, but like that on top of all letters... somewhat reminicent of Polish as well

I wouldn't mind such solutions as long as we treat them as non-standard, national orthographies. A Slovianski with a Polish-like orthography would look different as well.
However, our design principles demand that Slovianski can be written on any Slavic keyboard. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to play around with D-hacheks if nobody but Czechs and Slovaks can produce them easily. We can't expect Slovianski users to always use transliteration programs or special keyboard definitions.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
ok, I lied that's not Serbian cyrillic, it's Slovianski serbian-style cyrillic
I don't use serbian letters

I do believe that we shouldn't base our decision on random things like technical limitations
if we created this project 20 years ago we'd have a pure ascii orthography (Slovio seems to still be stuck in the past)

by the way, the script is not really a part of the language
people do all kinds of crazy stuff like this:
http://www.latynka.com/
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vojta
Member Avatar

IJzeren Jan
Feb 13 2010, 10:27 AM
Quote:
 
actually if you look at the voting soft s has 3 votes and population majority, (east slavic, polish) so we just write сьа in Serbian cyrillic

No, because there's no ь in Serbian.

Quote:
 
I don't think people would have a problem with it if it's spelled śa for the time being, but I have a different long-term solution

I don't envision the correct font in Slovianski to have an apostrophe
More like a Czech hacek when it's next to an l or a d, but like that on top of all letters... somewhat reminicent of Polish as well

I wouldn't mind such solutions as long as we treat them as non-standard, national orthographies. A Slovianski with a Polish-like orthography would look different as well.
However, our design principles demand that Slovianski can be written on any Slavic keyboard. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to play around with D-hacheks if nobody but Czechs and Slovaks can produce them easily. We can't expect Slovianski users to always use transliteration programs or special keyboard definitions.

About computer keyboard:
Microsoft has free keyboard designer (.NET component). I used this and now I have universal cyrillic and latin alphabets (I can write both CZ and HR and PL letters in latin, or both SER, RUS, UKR in cyrillic.)

If You want, download my drivers from here:
http://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/

This (named novoslovienskij keyboard driver) uses both accent keys and Right Alt. Both latin and cyrillic drivers are associated with the Slovenian national environment.
(Sloveni, molim Vas, da biste mene izvinili ;) )

Enjoy

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Vojta
Member Avatar

Great, we are almost identical in NS and SL.

So, why you have extra sja, when the accusative form of the reflexive pronoun is sebe/se?

I beleive, that people from nations having ся or sa will understand se without any problems.

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
the accusative is śa
I believe that people from nations having se will undertand śa without any problems so might as well have internal consistency
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
IJzeren Jan
Member Avatar
Jan van Steenbergen
iopq
Feb 13 2010, 09:26 PM
the accusative is śa
I believe that people from nations having se will undertand śa without any problems so might as well have internal consistency

Basically, I agree with that. HOWEVER, I can think of at least two reasons for making an exception here and use "se". First of all, ся (Russian Cyrillic)looks okay, but сја or сьа (Serbian Cyrillic) much less so. Neither sja nor s'a would ever win a prize in a beauty contest either. Se (се) looks okay in all versions. Understandability is not the issue here, because both are understandable for everybody. Many people dislike the abundance of j's and apostrophes in Slovianski, and this is a good way to get rid of a lot of them at once, because this particular word is likely to appear in virtually every text, even a short one.
Se would also be in line with the clitic accusatives me and te.

But of course, I won't forbid anybody to write "sja" anyway, if that's what he prefers.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
śa looks good to me, though
if you want to use a Polish keyboard and write that I would encourage you to do so
if you insist, write sa, I would prefer that over se
this is because the UNDERLYING form should not be affected by its graphical representation
We should separate the concerns: the model should be completely separated from the view

me and te shouldn't exist in Slovianski, just use mene and tebe for understandability
why would you use short forms that are only understood by half of the speakers, when you can use long forms understood by everyone?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Moraczewski
Member Avatar

"why would you use short forms that are only understood by half of the speakers, when you can use long forms understood by everyone?"

these forms are so often, there is strong tendency to shorten them.

I must say that for Russian speakers sa is not better understandable than se, but se at least can remind about sebe.
Also, se is used in majority of languages, while sa only in Slovak.
"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831.

[čćч]
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
iopq
Administrator
Jarvi
Feb 13 2010, 11:07 PM
"why would you use short forms that are only understood by half of the speakers, when you can use long forms understood by everyone?"

these forms are so often, there is strong tendency to shorten them.

I must say that for Russian speakers sa is not better understandable than se, but se at least can remind about sebe.
Also, se is used in majority of languages, while sa only in Slovak.

I meant spell it sa, pronounce it s'a

we have to have a separation of script and language... I mean we have two different scripts, so we should take care of the UNDERLYING STRUCTURE first and then figure out how to write it
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Fonologija i pravopis · Next Topic »
Add Reply