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| Reflexive pronoun; sja vs. s'a vs. se | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM (2,439 Views) | |
| Moraczewski | Feb 12 2010, 10:48 AM Post #1 |
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There are many complaints about sja Yes, it strictly follows the design rules as regular ę reflex. But it looks strange (at least in latin). I'd suggest to return to se officially although it will be harder for East Slavs. |
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"I nenít pochyby, e kdokoli chce a umí, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wemoně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebr osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 12 2010, 10:57 AM Post #2 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I can live with that. Indeed, sja is a word that appears VERY often, and it doesn't really make any text look good. In fact, se is what I used in Slovianski-N before it was changed, and I still think it'd look better. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 04:51 AM Post #3 |
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sja does look weird that's why I use s'a |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Vojta | Feb 13 2010, 06:59 AM Post #4 |
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reflexive pronoun is similar to personal Ja/Az and Ty the most used is accusative (sja in SL now), but dative is also frequently used think also about dative and other cases! in NS we have az/ja, mne, mnie/mi, mne, mnie, mnoj ty, tebe, tebie/ti, tebe, tebie, teboj -, sebe, sebie/si, sebe/se, sebie, seboj for example EN: I made myself a book (myself is dative, book in accusative) NS: Dielah sebie knigu. SL: ???? EN: I see myself in a mirror (myself is accusative) NS: Vidu sebe/se v z`rkalu. SL : Vidu sja v zerkalu. ????? reflexive pronoun should share the sentence subject. EN:I wash myself (who washes is the same who is washed) NS: Myju se. SL: Miju sja. ???? V. |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 13 2010, 09:44 AM Post #5 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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The rule for j/' is basically: - j comes word-initially, after a vowel, or after a consonant and before a vowel - apostrophe comes after a consonant at the end of the word, or between two consonants. In Serbian Cyrillic, the outcome would be сја anyway, because Serbian has no hard sign. Besides, I've seen many discussions about Slovianski on the Internet, both among users and others. We have to face the fact that most people hate these apostrophes. We should therefore try to get rid of them as much as we can.
Well, Slovianski has: ja, mene, mne/mi, mene, mne, mnoju ti, tebe, tobe/ti, tebe, tobe, toboju -, sebe, sobe/si, sebe, sobe, soboju (I notice that according to the grammar the locative of ti is tebe, while the dative is tobe, so that's probably an error)
SL: Ja izdelal sobe knigu.
SL: Ja vidu/vidim se/sja v zerkale.
Ja miju/mijem se/sja. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 10:04 AM Post #6 |
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actually if you look at the voting soft s has 3 votes and population majority, (east slavic, polish) so we just write ŃŃа in Serbian cyrillic this also implies that loĹ is declined as a soft noun as in polish (los - loĹa) than as a hard noun as in czech I don't think people would have a problem with it if it's spelled Ĺa for the time being, but I have a different long-term solution I don't envision the correct font in Slovianski to have an apostrophe More like a Czech hacek when it's next to an l or a d, but like that on top of all letters... somewhat reminicent of Polish as well |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 13 2010, 10:27 AM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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No, because there's no Ń in Serbian.
I wouldn't mind such solutions as long as we treat them as non-standard, national orthographies. A Slovianski with a Polish-like orthography would look different as well. However, our design principles demand that Slovianski can be written on any Slavic keyboard. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to play around with D-hacheks if nobody but Czechs and Slovaks can produce them easily. We can't expect Slovianski users to always use transliteration programs or special keyboard definitions. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 10:40 AM Post #8 |
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ok, I lied that's not Serbian cyrillic, it's Slovianski serbian-style cyrillic I don't use serbian letters I do believe that we shouldn't base our decision on random things like technical limitations if we created this project 20 years ago we'd have a pure ascii orthography (Slovio seems to still be stuck in the past) by the way, the script is not really a part of the language people do all kinds of crazy stuff like this: http://www.latynka.com/ |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Vojta | Feb 13 2010, 07:07 PM Post #9 |
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About computer keyboard: Microsoft has free keyboard designer (.NET component). I used this and now I have universal cyrillic and latin alphabets (I can write both CZ and HR and PL letters in latin, or both SER, RUS, UKR in cyrillic.) If You want, download my drivers from here: http://sites.google.com/site/novoslovienskij/ This (named novoslovienskij keyboard driver) uses both accent keys and Right Alt. Both latin and cyrillic drivers are associated with the Slovenian national environment. (Sloveni, molim Vas, da biste mene izvinili ) Enjoy |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| Vojta | Feb 13 2010, 07:17 PM Post #10 |
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Great, we are almost identical in NS and SL. So, why you have extra sja, when the accusative form of the reflexive pronoun is sebe/se? I beleive, that people from nations having ся or sa will understand se without any problems. V. |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 09:26 PM Post #11 |
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the accusative is Ĺa I believe that people from nations having se will undertand Ĺa without any problems so might as well have internal consistency |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 13 2010, 10:14 PM Post #12 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Basically, I agree with that. HOWEVER, I can think of at least two reasons for making an exception here and use "se". First of all, ŃŃ (Russian Cyrillic)looks okay, but ŃŃа or ŃŃа (Serbian Cyrillic) much less so. Neither sja nor s'a would ever win a prize in a beauty contest either. Se (ŃĐľ) looks okay in all versions. Understandability is not the issue here, because both are understandable for everybody. Many people dislike the abundance of j's and apostrophes in Slovianski, and this is a good way to get rid of a lot of them at once, because this particular word is likely to appear in virtually every text, even a short one. Se would also be in line with the clitic accusatives me and te. But of course, I won't forbid anybody to write "sja" anyway, if that's what he prefers. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 14 2010, 02:52 AM Post #13 |
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Administrator
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Ĺa looks good to me, though if you want to use a Polish keyboard and write that I would encourage you to do so if you insist, write sa, I would prefer that over se this is because the UNDERLYING form should not be affected by its graphical representation We should separate the concerns: the model should be completely separated from the view me and te shouldn't exist in Slovianski, just use mene and tebe for understandability why would you use short forms that are only understood by half of the speakers, when you can use long forms understood by everyone? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Moraczewski | Feb 14 2010, 07:07 AM Post #14 |
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"why would you use short forms that are only understood by half of the speakers, when you can use long forms understood by everyone?" these forms are so often, there is strong tendency to shorten them. I must say that for Russian speakers sa is not better understandable than se, but se at least can remind about sebe. Also, se is used in majority of languages, while sa only in Slovak. |
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"I nenít pochyby, e kdokoli chce a umí, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wemoně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebr osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 14 2010, 07:18 AM Post #15 |
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Administrator
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I meant spell it sa, pronounce it s'a we have to have a separation of script and language... I mean we have two different scripts, so we should take care of the UNDERLYING STRUCTURE first and then figure out how to write it |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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