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| Phonetical, morfological, historical orthography | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 09:04 AM (1,546 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Feb 15 2010, 10:36 AM Post #31 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Moje, videnjem, korabjem. But: svezsost', noczovat' |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 15 2010, 12:35 PM Post #32 |
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Administrator
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Well, it should probably be svezsest' regardless cf. Polish boleść I mean it's not that Polish didn't have the change, it's just Polish had a second change of e -> o after zs as in zsena -> zsona some South Slavic languages also have svezsost, but that's not enough since we established that West Slavic does have -est' in terms of noczovat': Ru. ночевать Ukr. ночувати Blr. начаваць (doesn't help any you can't even tell whether it was a e or o although I would assume e since it's otherwise identical to the Russian form) Pl. przenocować Cz. nocovat Sk. nocovať Sln. nočevati Cr. noćevati Bg. нощувам Mk. преноќува so it's pretty much a west-slavic only thing while -evat' has support from south and east (but messed up by the fact that -uvat' is also a popular form) |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 15 2010, 06:07 PM Post #33 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Sorry, but that's nonsense. "Boleść" is not a noun derived in a regularly way from an adjective, even more so since there isn't even an adjective "boli" in Polish. As for the e > o change (or the e > a change, for that matter), they only occur in front of a hard dental vowel. Treating "boleść" as the only regular form, and all the other cases like someting irregular is like treating the plural man ~ men in English as regular and all instances of -s as irregular.
Who established that? Certainly not me!
Look, there seems to be a misunderstanding going on here. Slovianski is an auxlang, it's not the hypothetical descendant of Common Slavic that would have emerged if it hadn't split up into multiple languages. It is supposed to be a simple language for communication, not only by linguists, but also by ordinary people. Such a language requires straightforwardness and a lot of simplification, because the latter don't want endless tables. That's why Slovianski, unlike a real "generoslavic" language, can't have thirteen declensions or eight conjugations. And that's also why the forms in Slovianski are based on those that exist in all Slavic languages. Take, as an example, the ending -ov, which exists in all Slavic languages (except Czech, Macedonian and Bulgarian) as the genitive plural ending for masculine nouns. Once that fact has been established, it's all we need to know. Slovianski is not only about picking majority solutions, but also about applying naturalistic means of simplification. Polish has królów, mężów, and dniów would be perfectly understandable as well. Just like that, kroljov, mužov and dnjov are completely understandable to anybody who understands the words krol', muž and den'. So what's the point then in discovering that a majority of the Slavic languages uses -ev, -ej, -i or whatever in these cases? The same thing goes also for verbs with the endings -ovat', -uvat', -ivat', -evat' and whathaveyou. The question is NOT: which particular ending is used by a majority of languages in which particular case. The question is: which of these endings occurs most, and is therefore associated correctly? The ending -ovat' is the obvious (and also: the etymologically most correct) choice. And that's all we need to know. If there are languages that don't like the sequence j + o, that's not our problem. Nočovat' is understood equally as well as nočevat', for people who learn it, one ending -ovat' is a hell of a lot easier to handle than multiple forms, which depend on the preceding consonant. I have accepted the o/e rule in noun declension, although in my opinion that isn't an improvement at all. We have also agreed that we won't apply it on suffixes like -ost' and -ovat'. As far as I'm concerned, that should be the end of the story. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 16 2010, 03:48 AM Post #34 |
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Administrator
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ok I messed up my Polish example you're right but the virdict should still not be out on svezsost' because it is by far the minority solution AINEC |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 16 2010, 05:01 PM Post #35 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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But then you've missed my point. The question is: what is the most common way of changing an adjective into a noun? What is the most common ending? And the answer is: -ost'. That's all we need to know. Questions like: how do most languages modify this ending if it's preceded by a or whatever, are completely beside the point. All we need is one ending. And you will agree that dobrest' wouldn't be a solution to anybody! |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 17 2010, 07:13 AM Post #36 |
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Administrator
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that's like asking what is the most common way of making plural? -i is by far the most common muzsi, zseni seems ok but what about jajci, oblaki, serdci, solnci? I'm not saying we have to change it now, but we have to weigh advantages and disadvantages of such changes instead of just saying the issue is closed. We can keep polishing the language without having to make final decisions on things now. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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