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| Phonetical, morfological, historical orthography | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 12 2010, 09:04 AM (1,547 Views) | |
| Vojta | Feb 12 2010, 09:04 AM Post #1 |
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Hello, This is my more general response to our discussion in "tvrdij jer" thread. Slavic languages have different orthographies. On the first end there are almost pure phonetical orthographies (e.g. croatian), on the second end there are various morfological/historical orthografies (e.g. russian or polish). Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages, and there are also combinations of both ways (czech, for example). Briefly about phonetical approach... advantages: easier learning of the orthography disadvantages: a lot of homonymes, lost of common stems (like in serbocroatian adverbs sla-d-ak, sla-t-ka, sla-t-ko, ili te-ž-ak, te-š-ka, te-š-ko, ili Sr-b-ija, sr-p-ski etc). And about morfological approach... advantages: fewer homonymes, stems are preserved diasadvantages: more difficult to learn correct writing So... I doubt, if for the WRITTEN form (e.g. aimed for READING) of the interslavic language, which must be intelligible WITHOUT the need to learn it, is the phonetical approach the best way. But I am not convinced about it, this is why I write here... Our common staroslovienskij jazyk (Moravian and Bulgarian edition in 9c-11c) had morfological orthography. The same is for it successors medieval Old Church Slavonic, contemporal dialects of Church Slavonic and almost all eastern and western local slavic languages. Let me to collect a few reasons for the priority of morfological way: 1) Another globaly used living languages have morfological or related historical orthographies (english, french, old and also modern greek, ...). Thanks to this approach one can see the latin or greek or gemanic origin and also is able to recognize synonyms (knight, night, ..., sea, see,... , tea, tee, ..., in english for example). 2) The distinction between I/Y is not because of phonetical pronounciantion. (hard Y does exist only in russian and maybe polish, but also here is acceptable to pronounce I/Y in the same way). This plays analytical role nly (compare b-y-ti, jesm, jesi, ..., b-i-ti, biju, biješ, for example). Moreover, in the OCS is in cyrillic two different I [і,и] and O [о,ѡ]. This is invented by st Kliment of Ochrid. (He has been inspired by the greek language, obviously.) I my opinion this is the great invention, because it helps to recognize different grammatical configurations being homonyms. I know, that this should look to be too complicated, but if you have precise set of few orthography rules, this can work. So, for the conclusion... About NS language: The NS language not only prefers, but also extends, morfological approach invented by st. Kliment and his team. (In cyrillic and greek transcription. Latin transcription is bit more phonetical.) For example, in cyrillic trascription we do have this: [моіе/moje] is for singular, [мойе/moje] is for plural, ... or [іегѡ/jego] is for genitive, [іего/jego] is for accusative, or ... [добрѡ/dobro] is for adverb, [добро/dobro] is for adjective, [іе/je from іест/jest, быти/byti] and [йе/je from йаде/jade, йасти/jasti] etc. This can be understood and this made the high level of expliciteness of the written language. About SL language: You are going through the phonetic way, I understand. No problem. But please do not make a lot of simplifications. In our debate about the soft and hard [e] you wroted, that [e] in SL language is for both soft and hard. OK, this is fine, but I still think, that you have inconsistencies in this way of thinking, because you have a lot of words having [je] as well. I know, that the latin letter [j] is the problem. It has more different meanings: 1. It is a palatization sign [like dj, tj, nj in croatian]. 2. It is a jotization/softening of vowels [я/ja, ѣ/je, ю/ju] and 3. It is a fully-fledged consonant, which belongs to the word stem [kraj, kraja, kraju, ... stroj, stroja, stroju] This is why in NS language we do distinct between [ja, je, ju] and [ia, ie, iu] even also in the latin transcription, which otherwise is more phonetical, than the cyrillic and greek transcription. the best V. |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| Moraczewski | Feb 12 2010, 11:11 AM Post #2 |
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But all living Slavic languages have very very different phonology, so how can we select common phonetic orthography? it's impossible to do that, and thus we have etymological orthography with free pronounciation. " still think, that you have inconsistencies in this way of thinking, because you have a lot of words having [je] as well." It seems only in verbal nouns where it's coming from -ije. |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| Vojta | Feb 12 2010, 04:59 PM Post #3 |
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Hi Jarvi, now I am totaly confused. I was thinking, that SL orthography is almost completely phonetical, but you write, that it is et |
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| Vojta | Feb 12 2010, 05:00 PM Post #4 |
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Hi Jarvi, now I am totaly confused. I was thinking, that SL orthography is almost completely phonetical, but you write, that it is et |
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| Vojta | Feb 12 2010, 05:10 PM Post #5 |
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Hi Jarvi, now I am totaly confused. I was thinking, that SL orthography is almost completely phonetical, but you write, that it is etymological! You write, that it is difficult to find common phonology. Yes, it is, but I don't think that this is invincible. (Do You have you opinion because of different alphabets cyr-lat and various writing systems [compounds, accent signs] in latin, don't you?) In my way of thinking, this all we are discussing is the next strong argument for prioritizing the morfological orthography instead the phonetical one. In my opinion, the NS orthography is much more etymological/morfological than that of SL. Am I wrong? Do we comprehend by etymological orthography the same matter, please? And about verbal nouns... You write, that -je comes from -ije (e.g. videt' -> videnje). OK, but here -j- is not the consonant, the whole word is not 4-syllabitic [vi-de-ni-je], but only 3-syllabitic [vi-de-nie]. In previous discussions somebody from here wrote, that in SL language [e] means both soft [ie] and hard [e]. OK, good idea. So why You do not have just -e for verbal nouns (e.g. videne). Do not You have it for "eugraphic/euphonic" reasons? the best V. |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 04:58 AM Post #6 |
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Administrator
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well I do believe the pronunciation is something like [vi.de.n'ie] with a ie dyphthong as opposed to [vi.de.n'e] or [vi.de.ne] Slovianski orthography is an etymological and morphological one serdce - [serce] izhod - [isxod] |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 13 2010, 10:41 AM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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That's one possible explanation. I would put it a little differently, though. Slovianski has no tough rules on pronunciation. e can be pronounced as [e], [je], ['e], whatever one prefers. The primary difference is that in the case of -je the pronunciation [e] is not an option.
True that. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 10:47 AM Post #8 |
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Administrator
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I'd rather prescribe one pronunciation and say that variations are OK, rather than prescribing none otherwise I'll be confused myself when speaking it since I can pronounce any one of those |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Vojta | Feb 13 2010, 07:40 PM Post #9 |
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Verbal noun ending -nje has HR and SER jazyk. (In cyrillic it is -ње, not -нје.) It is pronounced as consonant softened N plus vowel E (e.g. NJ+E). There is n’ for softened N in the SL language. So, the logic says me, that verbal nouns in SL jazyk must be -n’e. ??? |
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| Silmethule | Feb 13 2010, 08:31 PM Post #10 |
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You don't understand Slovianski ortography. Apostrophe is used only at the end of the word, in other positions "j" is used instead. Of course, if you like, you may do differently, but then viden'e = videnje. The only difference here between 'videne' and 'videnje' is that in the latter the palatalisation of n is obvious. Maybe it is not perfect etymological solution (in Slovianski where e, je, jer -> e), but in my opinion the ending -nje, with enforced palatalisation, for gerundium forms is more understandable than just videne (which I would understand as "seen" firtsly, not "seeing"). |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 09:32 PM Post #11 |
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well nje is etymologically from -ije so I'm ok with making the reflex of -ije exactly -je or maybe we could consider it to be a shorthand notation for -ije I do believe Gabriel still writes videnije |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Vojta | Feb 13 2010, 09:37 PM Post #12 |
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Ya, a lot of artifficial simplifications makes trouble, doesn't it? (homonyms like those betw. participles and verbal nouns etc.) But I am not authorized to speek into the thing, You are doing. have my apology Vojta |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 10:03 PM Post #13 |
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Administrator
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the simplifications are not artificial, they are taken from natural languages like Macedonian which has the same vowel system as Slovianski, but also has viduvan'e |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 13 2010, 10:48 PM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Well, there's supposed to avoid trouble rather than to make it! ![]() You know, the basic purpose of Slovianski is to be maximally understandable for people who know a Slavic language, with the simplest possible means. That means naturalism is a very important element. However, naturalism is not the only thing. Every form of communication requires two sides. Slovianski is intended to be understandable to the receiving side without any prior learning, but here's the trouble: the closer you want to get to the natural languages, the harder it becomes for the emitting side. Therefore, grammar has to be a simple as possible as well. Slovianski uses mostly forms that exist in most, if not all, Slavic languages, but not necessarily in the same positions. Yet, it remains a question of finding the right balance between naturalism and simplification, and opinions may differ about the right amounts. Obviously, a naturalistic Slavic interlanguage should have gender, but in an auxlang, thirteen declensions and 25 verb classes are out of the question. The current system took some engeneering, but I think it gives a fair approximation of the situation in the natural languages without having to resort to huge tables and lots of rules and exceptions. In the case of verbal nouns and participles there's not much of a problem, though. The latter have the ending -ni (f. -na, n. -ne), the latter the ending -nje (gen. -nja, dat. -nju, etc.). It may not be the most elegant of all solutions, but it works fairly well. -ije is of course an alternative, but as far as I know, only Russian has this. I don't think it's much of a solution either. -èéå looks quite horrible in Cyrillic, so it's better to avoid it. Besides, if we want to adjectivise it with the suffix -ni, we should get pitna voda, not pitijna of course. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 14 2010, 03:22 AM Post #15 |
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Administrator
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well Serbian has -èjà in Ñðáèjà and -èjå in ðè¼å÷ but your version of cyrillic is looks horrible anyway, since you'd spell it âèäåíéå at least if you used the pre-revolution Russian orthography it could look like this: êîñò³þ, ²åãîâà, ðà³îí so we could write âèäåí³å in this case we write é at the end of a syllable and ³ at the beginning we probably need words like serjozni anyway, and I think ñåð³îçíè = ñåðjîçíè > ñåðéîçíè |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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2:15 PM Jul 11