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| Tvrdij jer (ъ) v SL jazyku. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 9 2010, 08:59 PM (1,260 Views) | |
| Vojta | Feb 9 2010, 08:59 PM Post #1 |
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Pozdrav vsim. Az budu pisati v blizkom jazyku na Slovianski (SL) - Novoslovienskem jazyku (NS). Pozvolte mi se Vas pytati, zato jest naprimier v SL jazyku slovo "soglosno"? Originalna staroslovienska forma jest съгласнѡ. Zato jeste izmenili prvi jer na O i druge A na O? Tut az vidu nekonzistenciu. Nai (CZ, PL) zapadni jazyki imajut E za jer na silnej pozicii, vyhodni jazyky imajut O za tutoj jer. (I juni ne imajut ničto). V NS jazyku soglosno jest съгласнѡ/sglasno. Russi mout ъ/ govoriti jako A ili O, my zapadni moeme jako E i ovi juni narody mout govoriti kratko. Tako se pytaju: Jakij je v SL jazyku algoritmus trasformacii staroslovienskih jerov? s blagodarieniem Vojta |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 9 2010, 09:48 PM Post #2 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Welcome to this forum!
To those of you who haven't seen it yet: Novoslovienskij is a new language that was published only a month ago. A highly interesting project!
Well, that question is answered easily. A strong, hard jer always becomes o in Slovianski. Theoretically, the jer in the prefix съ- does not necessarily have to be hard, but for the sake of simplification it is better if a prefix has only one form, hence it always becomes so- in Slovianski. As for the a: we have discussed various possibilities for dealing with sequences like TorT and TolT. In East Slavic, it becomes -oro-, in Lechitic -ro-, in Czecho-Slovak and South Slavic -ra-. The reason why we have chosen -ro- is that it holds the middle between the other options, which should make it a bit easier. Mind you, unlike NS, Slovianski does not draw on Old Church Slavonic, but on the living languages and (partially) on reconstructed Common Slavic.
Well, basically the same as in Russian. Weak jers disappear, although in certain circumstances they can leave behind a palatalising apostrophe. Strong jers become o if hard and e when soft. That's it in a nutshell. Best, Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Vojta | Feb 10 2010, 04:33 PM Post #3 |
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Now it is clear. We share almost the same concept. NS is not an archaic language, we also tried to extrapolate virtual common slavic and have replaced a lot of jers by vowels. Jers is NS are only a. Hard jer (ъ or in latin) before r and l in vowel position (where they create an independent syllable, for example vlk, prst, ..., вълк, пърст, ...), b. Hard jer in certain noun cases (for example eny, en, enam, ..., жены, женъ, женам, ...), and c. Hard jer as "a glue" (I will explain our "glue" concept below.) d. Soft jer (ь or in latin) is used in the same way both in SL and NS. Thank You, I see we are thinking almost in the same way! Vojta ![]() NS concept in more detail: 1) SL algorithm for replacing old slavic jers by o or e is fully acceptable for NS as well. 2) Aha. So, you write that prefix (made from a preposition) should have only one form. I definitely agree. This is exactly why we have jer in NS (ъ or in latin). The jer serves as a glue (or joining tool) only. In our way of thinking, adding jer is better than adding vowel, because having jer, this original preposition is preserved in original form. (for example sglasiti, svaz, sstaviti, ..., съгласити, съваз, съставити, ...) This is about our "glue" concept or survival jers in NS. If the preposition ends by a vowel, we do not have jer, of course (for example napisati, написати). [IJzeren Jan,Feb 9 2010, 09:48 PM]
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| iopq | Feb 11 2010, 06:29 AM Post #4 |
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Well, Slovianski has additional rules for euphony, so it's true that we keep it as so- most of the time. In fact, s- is the default rendering of the suffix and so- is a euphonic version. съ is rendered as с in words like сньать, сjедать but as с in words like собрать because сбрать sounds bad |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Vojta | Feb 11 2010, 11:05 PM Post #5 |
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izdielali jeste novi slova (na http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/slovianski-english.html) Velika robota. Blagodariu vsim! --- Pozvolijte mi jete se pytati: Jesut tam slova: svet - world stupeniče - stairs sumnevat sja - doubt tat - state (drava po NS) ... Ne znaju, jakij jest v SL jazyku algoritmus za mekčenie i tvrdienie. V naem NS to jest proste: starosl. [ѣ] i [ѥ] jest novosl. [ie] - megkij starosl. [е] jest novosl. [e] - tvrdij Zato jest v SL svet a ne sviet? (starosl. jest [свѣтъ])? Vy jeste vybrali tvrdu formu (jako june slov. jazyky) no vie velika čast SL jazyka jest megka, imaje [ije, je]? Problema [stupeniče]: starosl. [щ] byl zvuk [t] jako ligatura znakov [ш] i [т], koje se transformiral do [č] v vyhodnih megkih jazykach (i SLO jazyku), ili do [č/ć/c] v zapadnih jazykah, ili ostal jest jako [t] v junih tvrdih jazykah. Zato jest v SL jazyku [čo] (po zapadnih jazykah), no slovo [stupeniče] jest po vyhodnih jazykah? Zato ne napr. jako [stupenice] ili [stupenite]? Ili zato [čo] ne jest [to] ili [čo]? Problema [sumnevat]: I jete se pytaju na slovo [sumnevat]. Zato jest tamo i zato jest tam tvrde nejotovane [e]? V logikie NS jazyka to jest [smnievati/съмніевати] i tako mysliu, e po logike transformacii jeru tu napisanej o SL jazyku by to moglo byti jako [somnjevat]? Slovo [svet] protiv [stupeniče]: Zato jest [svet] juno tvrdij, no [stupeniče] jest vyhodno megke? Navierno ne mogu čuti, kdie jest v SL tvrde [e] i kdie jest jotovane megke [ie/je]. Imate li algoritmus? Problema [/s]: I jete mi pozvolijte pytati zato jest v SL jazyku megke blagodariu za otvietienie i jete jedin raz blagodariu za robotu, kojue dielajete Vojta |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 11 2010, 11:06 PM Post #6 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Does it? I'm not aware of that at all! I actually was under the impression that we agreed once that prefixes should have one form only. I'm not sure if we discussed s-/so- in detail, but I'm sure we made the same decision for v-. And to be very honest, since Slovianski is primarily an IAL and not an artlang and not an altlang, I think we should stick to that. But if you insist... I have to agree that certain words look bad with s- only, while other words look bad with so-. So what would you propose as a simple rule for deciding whether to use s- or so-? A simple solution could be so- before two or more consonants, but that would imply: sobrat' -> sberu, and of course sbor instead of sobor. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 11 2010, 11:43 PM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Thank you! In fact, it's Andrej who has been responsible for most of the words I've added this week. Kudos!
The thing is, Slovianski doesn't make much fuss about hard and soft e. Therefore, e doesn't necessarily have to be hard, just like i doesn't necessarily have to be soft. We merge e and ie just like we merge i and y. The speaker can decide for himself how he pronounces it. Anyway, Slovianski is primarily a written language, so for the time being, this is pretty much a non-issue. There are two good reasons for this choice. First of all, the same character in the same position can be hard in some languages and soft in others, and anyway, about half of the Slavic languages don't really distinguish between i and y anymore. And secondly, with y around it would be very hard, if not impossible, to keep the grammar regular. It is also a matter of convenience.
Remember that Slovianski is based on the living Slavic languages and not on Church Slavonic. We do use the common ancestor of the Slavic languages, though, but remember that there are differences between OCS and Proto-Slavic. Proto-Slavic [č] comes from [stj] or [skj]. The pronunciation [t] is a South Slavic innovation. In Slovianski it remains [č].
Well, see above. The ending -iče comes from -skj- (therefore Polish often has -isko in these cases), not from *-itje or *-ikte. As for čo... Well, we had several options here. To me, it looks like a fair compromise between Russian čto, Ukrainian čo, Polish co and South Slavic to. Besides, it has the additional advantage that it makes the forms čego, čemu etc. look more regular.
Possibly, this is one of the words Andrej proposed to me, so perhaps he can tell more about this particular form.
Yes, and a very simple one: both tverde and mjakke [e] > e. ![]()
Well, we don't have a regular pattern for derivation from Latin and/or Greek. We simply use what's most common among the living Slavic languages. It is, however, quite possible and even probable that there are mistakes in the dictionary. Officially we check every single word in at least 10 dictionaries, but I'm sure we sometimes go a bit easier on ourselves than we actually should. Best, Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 12 2010, 05:11 AM Post #8 |
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the euphony rules just apply to the root, so it's sobrat' - soberu and maybe even sobirat' but sbor since it's a noun we probably want to distinguish between viiti and voiti (probably spelled vij- and voj-) where one has the vi- suffix and the other has the vo- although that might just be an exception to the rule... v- everywhere is probably fine because it will be pronounced w- like vstretit' s'a would be [ўстретит' с'а] or if the speakers can't pronouce that then [фстретит' с'а] (this is probably why it's treated differently in Slavic languages compared to s since the w pronunciation was common to all languages at some point and only later did it start to be pronounced f) I think szto is a better choice for "what" actually here is my reasoning: Russian form is czto, but pronounced szto and czo (although czo sound gross and also easily confused with czo from czego) so we'll call it a tie Ukr. form is weird, dialects have szo so it's a tie Blr. is szto so it's 0.5 for szto Polish is co so it doesn't apply Slovak is czo which is +0.5 for czo Czech is co Slovenian is kaj Serbian is kaj in Kajkavski, cza in Czakavski, but the most populous dialect is Sztokavski which gives 0.5 for szto Macedonian and Bulgarian have szto which is +1.0 if you look at it that way szto has enough votes for a whole branch, and czo has only Slovak btw czo and co are based on czьso -> czso -> czo/co but if we go by etymology, it's 4 votes for czto and 2 votes for czьso so I think szto wins any way you count it if we don't care about being regular since czto is anything but regular originally anyway |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 12 2010, 10:44 AM Post #9 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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So when so- and s-, then?
The current solution is different: viidet' and v-idet' (to distinguish it from videt' "to see"). In other words, never vo-, although in this one particular case voidet' admittedly would look better. Also, i- never becomes j-, therefore there is no vijdet', prijmat' etc.
Hm, I wouldn't say Polish/Czech "co" does't apply, since West Slavic c more often than not is represented by č anyway. Giving the same forms as inpunt, I'd count like this: - čo, co, ča: 2,6 votes – što: 2,0 votes – čto: 0.5 votes – kaj: 0.4 votes – ščo: 0.25 votes – šo: 0.25 votes čto, ščo and šo are all about as close to čo as to što. If we divide them equally, we get 3,4 votes for čo and 2,7 votes for što (in let's call it the second round). Besides, like I said, čego is much closer to čo than to što. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Feb 13 2010, 04:00 AM Post #10 |
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Jan wrote:
Well, it seems clear to me (a Polish and Russian speaker) that when we have a nation of 145 million people who pronounce what looks like "čo" as "što" - and where we have the Polish and Czech "co" really being an "in between toss up" (they are, at least, to my ears), that the VOTE criteria should be trumped overwhelmingly by the population criteria - and, thus, "što" should prevail. Or perhaps you are using čo simply because it mimics the Russian word in appearance, even though it is pronounced što? (similar to "spasibo" really being pronounced "spasibA", but Russians insist that it be written "spasibO" in Latin transliteration .... ) "ŠTO" - "SXTO" ...IMHO - имхо - PMSM - PMSN... is the most logical choice |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 05:09 AM Post #11 |
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you can cut it so many ways I can just say that Russians hate czo so we should pick szto and make a vote where I give szto 1 vote from Russian when in doubt, just use etymology if we use etymology чьто wins over чьсо |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| steeven | Feb 13 2010, 06:22 AM Post #12 |
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REALNOST: Here are the facts about "What" speakers: There are 184 million što speakers There are 68 million "co" speakers There are 47 million "ščo" speakers There are 6 million "čo" speakers There are 2 million "kaj" speakers So why does Slovianski use "čo" ????
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 07:33 AM Post #13 |
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when Russians hear "czo" they start to think of something like this: а чё иопт с поцанчиками бываит сидим водворе семки счёлкаим лох идёт мыему чу хавас мобилон c*ука он такой довай е*алом счёлкать аще коры мочим наш круг перевили на эсперанто чисто терь мусора не догоняют чо мы балакаем лол)))) ничо так с есперанто чётко идёт аще |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Feb 13 2010, 10:20 AM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Like I said, for several reasons. First of all, you should know that the number of speakers is rather some kind of additional feature of the Voting Machine. It plays a role only in cases of severe doubt. Otherwise, we might as well turn Slovianski into a form of simplified Russian, because Russian will always win speakerwise. Another thing is this: do we use written Russian ("to") or pronounced Russian ("to", "o"). After all, when it comes to adjective endings, we count the Russian vote as "-ogo" and not as "-ovo", so why should we make a difference here? Third question: how much do we count dialects? Clever use of the Voting Machine implies that there is also a second round too, if necessary. Polish "co" and Czakavian "cza" are of course votes for "o" rather than for "to". Forms like "kaj", "o" and "o" are neutral, and I think the same can be said for the written Russian form "to". Even if the entire Russian vote is for "to", we have 2,875 votes for "to' and 2,188 votes for "o". So why o? Like Andrej said, it's more like a middle solution. Sometimes counting votes isn't the only solution, it's understandability that counts. Besides, o fits much better with the rest of the forms of the word, ego, emu etc. Consider that a schematic feature of Slovianski (because schematically speaking, the genitive of to would logically be togo or something. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Feb 13 2010, 10:27 AM Post #15 |
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I changed my mind when Russian speakers started complaining about it though |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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