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How do we stop the Polish?; A discussion about pronunciation
Topic Started: Oct 28 2008, 10:09 AM (1,735 Views)
Gabriel Svoboda

I am not sure if every Russian would be able to produce this transliteration without seeing the original name. But it doesn't matter.

I don't like the fact we would have to lose the information about r's in the dictionary only because of a minority of languages. If we don't know, we should be just guided by majority. Remember that r's are not very numerous anyway:

d' - 8 hits in the dictionary
r' - 15 hits in the dictionary
n' - 32 hits in the dictionary
l' - 120 hits in the dictionary
t' - hundreds due to infinitives

Also, s' and z' weould not affect the language so much, because they have the following results in the non-word-final position:
sj - 9 hits in the dictionary
zj - 3 hits in the dictionary
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iopq
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Well, they just pronounce it as рж, not as the Czech sound of course. The few hits for r' and s'/z' just makes it easier to exclude them.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Using such criteria, we might also eliminate d', and then change the infinitive ending to -ti and eliminate also t', and keep only n' and l' because these are the only two consonants that no language softens by transforming them into sibilants.
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iopq
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that's what obÄŤoslovenski jazik has so it might be a logical choice

but what are the cons/pros of having more soft consonants? I'd like to try and speak Slovianski over Ventrillo and see how we do imo
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

I don't like this kind of decisions. Where is our old principle that we don't decide anything, just majority does? Here two kinds of majorities conflict (the etymological one vs. the phonological one), but in this case I think we should prefer to store more information in the dictionary (we just need to change sj to s', zj to z' and correct the few los'-like words) instead of deleting it.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Let's please stick to what we have: t', d', s', z', n', r', l'. They form a perfectly logical grouping. We exclude a few rare occurrences of p', b', v' and I'm fine with that, but let's at least leave the dental/alveolar group intact. If a person doesn't want to write an apostrophe at the end of the word, I'm fine with that, just like I'm fine with it if someone wants to write an apostrophe in front of a vowel.

If we'd end up with lekar, lekara, what would that mean for morje? More/moro, mora?
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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bandziol20
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Well, actually in Croatian it is - more. So if you want to be so consequent... ;)
OR : you can apply a historical attitude (I don't know whether this is so popular in Slovianski),
and *-r' has come to -r (lekar), and so on in declension (lekar-a), but *-re (Latin mare) has come -rje (morje), and so on in declension (morj-a)
BTW : what is a present form for plural genitive of morje ? :P
Edited by bandziol20, Aug 31 2011, 11:08 AM.
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
Administrator
the problem with that approach is that -r'a is definitely kept in a majority of the languages separate from -ra so etymologically even if the form is lekar, lekar'a would win anyway
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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bandziol20
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Ok. Let it be. lekar - lekar'a (I don't know if it is clear for non-Slavs, but OK).
What about večer ('evening') & večer'a ('a meal in the evening') ? How is it solved in Slovianski ?
Glasovanje je čista gluposť. Voting is a pure nonsense.
Pišem slovjansky. I write Slovianski.

http://www.conlangs.fora.pl/index.php
http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/dynamic_dictionary.html
http://dict.interslavic.com/index.jsp
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iopq
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bandziol20
Sep 1 2011, 08:38 AM
Ok. Let it be. lekar - lekar'a (I don't know if it is clear for non-Slavs, but OK).
What about večer ('evening') & večer'a ('a meal in the evening') ? How is it solved in Slovianski ?
veczer/veczer'a is pretty clear, it's just a hard root for the masculine word and a soft root for the feminine word
lekar/lekar'a is not that clear because we suddenly have palatalization appear for no reason - even though this may be the easiest form for the majority to pronounce
this is why we would write lekar'/lekar'a and allow lekar' to be pronounced [lekar] if the soft pronunciation is too hard

but as long as morphologically we are consistent we shouldn't create problems in writing
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
bandziol20
Aug 31 2011, 11:01 AM
Well, actually in Croatian it is - more. So if you want to be so consequent... ;)
OR : you can apply a historical attitude (I don't know whether this is so popular in Slovianski),
and *-r' has come to -r (lekar), and so on in declension (lekar-a), but *-re (Latin mare) has come -rje (morje), and so on in declension (morj-a)
BTW : what is a present form for plural genitive of morje ? :P
I know this is nitpicking, but morje is not really correct. It's actually moře. It so happens that in most languages palatalisation and iotisation give the same result after r, but that doesn't make it the same thing. So, as a plural genitive I'd write moř.

In the case of lekař... well, nom. lekař -> gen. lekař-a is a perfectly regular pattern. Of course, several languages don't like final -ř and don't mind -řa at the same time. Clearly, if the genitive is lekařa, the ROOT is lekař-, and the nominative lekar is just a deformation of that root.

From that point of view, it's really better to have soft consonants and keep declension easy and regular. Less soft consonants may seem like a simplification to some, but in reality it means that people will have to learn both the nominative and the genitive/root/noun class, which is a much higher learning burden. Unless of course we'd postulate a genitive lekara (like we did with rys-a and knęz-a), but that go against the natlangs.

[čćч]
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
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Mścisław
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Tut ja wiżu mnogo osob, iże su iz polskogo fora jezykotvorcov :D
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