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How do we stop the Polish?; A discussion about pronunciation
Topic Started: Oct 28 2008, 10:09 AM (1,734 Views)
iopq
Administrator
It is a well-known fact that Ukrainian speakers have historically sucked at spelling Polish because they couldn't tell between sz and . The reason I didn't want to include spellings like los'a and gus'am is because Polish speakers will pronounce them losia and gusiam. This will be uncomprehensible to other Slavs that will hear loa and guam. How do we stop the Polish from making pronunciation mistakes that will undermine understandability? I would rather decline words like los Czech-style in that case. Does spelling the word losja solve the problem? I don't know. But this is more of a debate about how much we want to enforce some pronunciations to improve understanding.

On a much bigger scale, we must enforce "okanje" and "ekanje" on Russians and Belorussians because not all Slavic languages have such drastic vowel reduction. At the same time, I don't think that fricative g impedes understanding.

The reason I feel we need to mandate SOME pronunciation is the same reason why need to mandate some spelling, some vocabulary and some grammar. If we don't everyone will just speak and write their own language.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
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Writing "sj" solves the "Polish" problem, and, you know, no Pole woud say "sinus" as /s'inus/. So we can say "hard s" there.

And I don't think we should "mandate" any pronunciations. Some time ago I proposed writing about "not officially supported" natural-languages-like pronunciations of Slovianski. I mean describing pronunciation with sounds pronounced in way that Russians do, that Poles do, Czechs, Slovaks, Croatians, etc. to show how to tell to be best understood by {Poles, Russians, Czechs, Croatians...} and what might hey mean when they say word sounding like...
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Moraczewski
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So everybody must be familiar with pronunication rules of all other languages?

Well about enforcing okanje I'm fully agree, this will be more understandable anyway. But recently I was thinking about one more thing - the stress. I'm affraid it would be hard for Russians who often use stress on the last syllable, to understand Czechs with their stress on the first syllable.
"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal".
Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831.

[čćч]
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Silmethule
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Quote:
 
So everybody must be familiar with pronunication rules of all other languages?

Nobody must anything... I just thought it might be good, if you could find description of pronounciation of people with who you want to talk in Slovianski. I said "not officially suported" :P
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I agree with Sil that sj and zj would do the trick perfectly. Polish has many words, like komisja, Azja etc., in which the s and z are pronounced pretty sharp.

And yes, okanje et sim. should be advised against. I'm not very much in favour of "forbidding" anything, but I'll make a note on the pronunciation pages that making the pronunciation of a vowel stress-dependent is ill-advised.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
Administrator
This is why I have been writing sja while still writing kon'a

btw, if we're going to have fixed stress it's going to go either on the penultimate (like Polish) or third from the last syllable (like Macedonian). Czech and Slovak have very weak stress because stress in those languages doesn't change the length of the syllable, while in Russian it does.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Spelling sj and zj doesn't solve the problem, unless we want so spell also losj.

Of course, the second approach to soft phonemes is not to take them by etymology, but by pronunciation - i.e. to count only those languages where soft consonants occur without sounding like sibilants. This means we would get rid not only of s' and z', but also of r' (sibilant in Polish and Czech). N' would be retained, as well as l' (east Slavic, Slovak, Serbo-Croatian), d' and t' (Russian, Ukrainian, Czech, Slovak, Macedonian).

The result: d', l', n', t'
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Gabriel Svoboda

But generally, if it is allowed to tell Poles that in Slovianski they mustn't pronounce t'a as cia, d'a as dzia, r'a as rza, why is it illegal to tell them that s'a mustn't become sia, as well as z'a > zia?
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iopq
Administrator
I'm not against eliminating r', but now we'll have a combination rj

so the final result would be car, lekar, burja, instead of car', lekar', bur'a
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Probably, for the sake of grammar, we should keep writing r', s', z' ... But in the official grammar, their pronunciation should be discussed in a paragraph separate from d', t', l', n'. Something like that:

The default pronunciation of l', n' is [l'], [n']. The pronunciation [lj], [nj] (before a vowel] and [l], [n] everywhere else is allowed for those who CAN'T pronounce [l'], [n'].

The default pronunciation of d', t' is [d'], [t']. Those who CAN'T pronounce these mustn't replace them with anything that would sound like [dž], [č]; instead, use [dj], [tj] (before a vowel) and [d], [t] (everywhere else).

The default pronunciation of r', s', z' is [rj], [sj], [zj] (before a vowel) and [r], , [z] (everywhere else). Those who CAN pronounce them palatalised, let them do it; however, the final result must be no way similar to [rž], [š], [ž].
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iopq
Administrator
Well Macedonian has два лекара
Czech has normal declension for los

we COULD do with no soft s, z, and r if we want to
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Yes, we could. But do we want to? The majority says we should have r', s', z'.
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iopq
Administrator
Well, depends on what you look at
Only a minority of the languages allows for a r' at the end of the word
but majority of those restore it in derivative forms, and some don't
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Yes ... so we need the soft sign to remind of the restoration in the derivative forms, even if it's not pronounced in nominative. It would be awful to have lekar > lekar'a. Also, a majority of language do allow r' at the end of the word, just the east Slavic pronunciation is heard as [r] by other Slavs, and the Czech-Polish pronunciation as [ž] by other Slavs.
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iopq
Administrator
No, to Russians the Czech sound is heard as рж
Haven't you heard of the horse Пржевальского?

If we don't have the r' phoneme then we'd probably just say/write lekara
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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