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| Regarding the dictionary; Suggestions for improvement | |
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| Topic Started: Oct 12 2008, 09:31 PM (15,334 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Oct 12 2008, 09:31 PM Post #1 |
Jan van Steenbergen
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I've been going through the vocabulary file pretty thoroughly and there are a few things I'd like to notice: I'm having a bit of a problem with forms like "populjarni", "revoljucija", etc. Forms like that look way too much like transliterated Cyrillic. This is typically the kind of words that are written the same in almost all languages, and pronunciation is the result of spelling rather than the other way round. In my opinion we should be very consequent about the way we import words into Slovianski from international/scientific vocabulary, and we should preserve the original spelling as much as possible (within the limitions of Slovianski, of course, so k instead of c [ k ], no q/x/y, etc.). I suggest: alianc instead of: aljanc apelacija instead of: apeljacija apelovat' instead of: apeljovat' ekskluzivni instead of: ekskljuzivni film instead of: fil'm filmovat' instead of: fil'movat' instalacija instead of: instaljacija kalkulovat' instead of: kal'kul'vat' vikalkulovat' instead of: vikal'kuljovat' kapitulacija instead of: kapituljacija karierist instead of: karjerist (after all, we also have bariera) konsumerizm instead of: konsjumerizm kontrarevolucija instead of: kontrrevoljucija kultura instead of: kul'tura popularni instead of: populjarni premiera instead of: premera premier-minister instead of: premijer-minister revolucija instead of: revoljucija rezumovat' instead of: rezjumovat' socialistični instead of: socijalistični spekulacija instead of: spekuljacija volt instead of: vol't There are also a few words in the word list were the j or the ' went missing: cerkev' instead of: cerkev datel'ni padež instead of: datelni krov' instead of: krov mil'ni kamen' instead of: mil'ni kamen misl' instead of: misl porazit' instead of: porazit prijatel' instead of: prijatel sil'no instead of: silno skrotit' instead of: skrotit vinitel'ni padež instead of: vinitelni padež zakonodatel'stvo instead of: zakonodatelstvo Here are a few words with spelling errors: Blizki Voshod instead of: Bliski Voshod paradoksal'ni instead of: paradoskal'ni radikal'ni instead of: radikal'na simbolični instead of: simbolično (at least for the adjective) šofer: spelling error in English ("drive" instead of "driver") utverdit' instead of: utevrdit' utverdžat' instead of: utevrdžat' zdrovoohronjenje: spelling error in English ("healt" instead of "health") Besides: idet' instead of: iti predidet' instead of: prediti The following words have errors in the "part of speech" section: bi cel' diplomatični hvačat' skeptični teritorial'ni uprošč(ov)at' uže One thing I noticed in the dictionary which I like pretty much, is that -ivat' is systematically replaced with -ovat'. That would also mean: bojovat' instead of: bojevat' podkopovat' instead of: podkopavat' vozderžovat' instead of: vozderživat' And how about sprašivat' and a few similar cases? BTW, I've noticed a few cases of -avat' as well. BTW, I see that the ending -ovat' is used pretty often for imperfective verbs. In a few cases I think it's not justified, so I propose: obnovjat' instead of: obnovovat' obožovat' instead of: obožavat' ocenjat' instead of: ocenjovat' osudžat' instead of: osudžovat' podkresljat' instead of: podkreslovat' posiljat' instead of: posiljovat' považat' instead of: považovat' povtorjat' instead of: povtorjovat' pozvoljat' instead of: pozvoljovat' predupredžat' instead of: predupredžovat' rozmeščat' instead of: rozmeščovat' rozširjat' instead of: rozširovat' skročat' instead of: skročovat' srovnjat' instead of: srovnivat' uproščat' instead of: uproščovat' zabronjat' instead of: zabronjovat' zamrožat' instead of: zamrožovat' zatemnjat' instead of: zatemnjovat' Next issue: šč. I've found a few of these in cases where - according to our own rules of phonological derivation - č would be in place: buduči instead of: budušči hvačat' instead of: hvaščat' nastupajuči instead of: nastupajušči obogačat' instead of: obogaščat' posečat' instead of: poseščat' posvjačat' instead of: posvjaščat' več instead of: vešč Speaking about phonological derivation, here are a few cases of -ra- where we should have -ro-: jedno-/dva-/trikrotno instead of: -kratno nagroda instead of: nagrada robotat' instead of: rabotat' robstvo instead of: rabstvo rozčarovanje instead of: razočarovanije And a few other cases of violation of our own rules for phonological derivation. We should have: černi instead of: čorni četirdesjat' instead of: -desat dosjagat' instead of: dosagat' dosjagnut' instead of: dosagnut' jačmen' instead of: ječmen mesjač instead of: mesac predupredit' instead of: predupredžit' Now that we have finally established the ending of the verbal noun (-je), we should have (including a few similar forms that are not verbal nouns but have similar forms anyway): letje licemerje morje nasilje oruže popoludnje poslanje povremenje rozčarovanje rozliče srednoveče strahovanje vjazenje zdrovje zdrovoohronjenje Speaking about neuters. Now that we have decided that neuter adjectives have -e instead of -o, we should have: morske dno jedinstvene čislo složene slovo množestvene čislo elektrošokove oruže Objedinjene Krolevstvo prilagatel'ne imeno vlasne imeno vodne polo global'ne potepljenje instead of: global'no poteplenije Yes. Verbs on -it' have a past passive participle -jeni. Therefore: merjenje instead of: merenje naseljenje instead of: naselenje oslabjeni instead of: oslabeni otvorjeni instead of: otvoreni prevladženje instead of: prevladenje rozdražnjenje instead of: rozdražnenje Sjedinjene Štati instead of: sjedninene > sjedinjene skročenje instead of: skrotenje tverdženje instead of: tverdenije upotrebjenje instead of: upotrebenje upotrebjenje instead of: upotrebenje uverjeni instead of: uvereni uvjaznjenije instead of: uvjaznenije zadovoljeni instead of: zadovoleni zatvorjeni instead of: zatvoreni Next point: prepositions/prefixes. As far as I know, Slovianski always has ob-, s-, -iz-, pre-. In other words, there shouldn't be verbs with the prefixes pro-, o-, so-, z-. Furthermore, since we use od- we should avoid ot-. And for the rest, I take it prepositions don't "eat" initial vowels of the verbs following them, nor do we insert vowels between them to avoid inconventient clusters. Therefore I suggest: nafta-prevod instead of: -provod obstanovivat' instead of: o- obstanovit' instead of: o- obvjazok instead of: obavjazok obsvetlit' instead of: osvetlit' obsvetljat' instead of: osvetlovat' podzrevat' instead of: podozrevat' precitovat' instead of: procitovat' predolžit' instead of: prodolžit' predolžat' instead of: prodolžovat' prekontrolovat' instead of: prokontrolovat' prekrijumčarit' instead of: prokrijumčarit' preslavjeni instead of: proslaveni preslavit' instead of: proslavit' prešedši instead of: prošedši priidet' instead of: pridet' sjedinit' instead of: so- sprovodit' instead of: so- sprovodžat' instead of: so- sjedinovat' instead of: so- sbiranje instead of: so- sderžat' instead of: so- sderžovat' instead of: soderživat' izdelat' instead of: zdelat' snova instead of: znovu oddeljeni instead of: otdeleni As a result of recent discussion, I think we should have: cvet instead of: kvet detko instead of: dete jagnjatko instead of: jagnja korabl' instead of: korab kradnut' instead of: krast' ukradnut' instead of: ukrast' vremeno goda [sln] instead of: vreme goda zemlja instead of: zemja A few cases of (IMO) incorrect applying of suffixes. I suggest: drevni instead of: dreveni imennik instead of: imenik nevinni instead of: nevini ovplivit' instead of: ovplivnit' ovplivovat' instead of: ovplivnjovat' pevatel' instead of: pevak poslannik instead of: poslanik predhodžuči instead of: predhodžujuči svjatnik instead of: svjaščenik ubezglovnit' instead of: obezglovit' ubezglovnjat' instead of: obezglovovat' vzajemnodejstvje instead of: vzajemodejstvje For the following words I suggest a slightly different meaning: put': "journey" instead of "road" (and then droga for "road") podderžovat'/podderžat': "maintain" instead of "support" težki: "heavy" instead of: "difficult" A few words IMO were poorly chosen. Instead I propose: aerolinija instead of: avialinija imanje instead of: imajetok (or: imajatok, if anything) nazist and nazistični instead of: nacist and nacistični (which looks a bit like a misspelling of narcist to me) os' "axis" instead of: osa (exists only in Czech AFAIK; all other languages have os', while osa means "wasp") religijni instead of: religiozni riziko and rizikovat' instead of: risk and riskovat' (there is also "rizični"; "risk" looks more like the game) ruh instead of: muvemant slovenski instead of: slovenački strijec instead of: striko For the rest, here are a few more suggestions for improvement: imat' instead of: mat' (I think "imat'" will do) končit' instead of: končat' letet' instead of: odletet' as the perfective form of letat' papež instead of: papa plošča instead of: ploščad' pozni instead of: pozdni presna konferencija instead of: presa-konferencija prinajmenej instead of: prinajmnej (inevitable if we have menej pripomnit' instead of: pripomenut' rosnut' instead of: rastit' rozvinut' instead of: rozvit' sprošivat' instead of: sprašivat' učastničit' instead of: učastnit' učastnikovat' instead of: učastvovat' upolnomočničit' instead of: upolnomočit' upolnomočnikovat' instead of: upolnomočivat' virosnut' instead of: virastit' zahod instead of: zapad jutro instead of: zutra As for the reflexive pronoun: I've always preferred "se", but I have to agree that "sja" would be more correct. In any case, the dictionary file has both "sja" and "sa". I suggest we limit ourselves to "sja". At last, I'd like to add that I don't mind forms like kogda and tut-/tamtoj, but my own grammar has always had kogdi and -tot, so I'd like to preserve these forms as well. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 02:39 AM Post #2 |
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As fast as the soft l, I don't know if East Slavs would pronounce these words correctly. L in East Slavic is velarized. Besides, in Polish L is a soft counterpart of Ł (see words like lód that have soft l in other languages) I'd agree with this change is if we change l' to l and l to ł I don't agree with cerkev' and krov' because in my orthography v is followed by a j in all cases and cerkevj just looks wrong desjat' vs. desat' vs. deset' is a possible discussion (cf. Slovak desiaty, desať) končit' vs. končat' is perfective/imperfective pair, both should be in the dictionary some of the other things we can discuss, but I agree with most |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 13 2008, 03:55 AM Post #3 |
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Before I have time go through the whole Jan's valuable post, just some quick comments: For imperfective verbs, -ovat' just makes it clear that the verb is imperfective, while -at' might not be understood by all Slavs as imperfective. Before listing things like potepLJENJE in the dictionary, we should finally decide on the orthography, I didn't notice that the discussion was concluded with allowing the e/'e distinction. If most languages have words like los' and os', obviously most languages also have the s' phoneme, ergo Slovianski should have it too. Zapad is most common, zahod means "WC" in Czech. Slovenski means "Slovak" in Czech/Slovak, that's why sloveneczki is better (I agree it shouldn't be slovenAczki, as the suffix is -ec in Slovianski). |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 03:57 AM Post #4 |
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We can debate whether iti is a good infinitive, I actually like it notice that -avat' is formed from an -at' verb adding the -vat' suffix I'll fix the part of speech section when I find out what the legend is D: I may not agree that -it' verbs have a -jeni passive past participle because they do not in Czech, I'm fine with -eni in that case nafta-prevod would mean "translation of nafta" as far as ob/o we could make a rule where ob is always followed by a vowel, while o is always followed by a consonant, but I'll leave that for discussion same for so- before a consonant and s- before a vowel note that pre- is not the same as pro- pročitana kniga is a book that was read prečitana kniga is a book that was re-read I added a meaning "heavy" for t'ažki but I kept "difficult" as well aerolinija vs. avialinija... what's the difference? Added imanije because Gabriel doesn't agree with -n'e so I won't mess with that until we're certain that's the ending we want to have pozni is not correct because we should have pozžej as the comparative same deal as serdce I think zajtra is better than jutro for "tomorrow" because za + morning is the general Slavic construction presna sounds like presni - fresh water in Russian so I'd like to avoid that letet' sounds imperfective to me I changed predhodžujuči to predšedši since we now have this form |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 09:03 AM Post #5 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Do keep in mind that Polish rarely uses Ł in scientific/loaned vocabulary. Whenever the original has L, Polish has it, too. Russian is in a slightly different situation, because no matter whether the final result becomes калкулатор or калькулятор, it will be a transcription anyway. From a Polish point of view, kal'kuljator looks equally bad as *filjozof or *psiholjog. And [ka5ku'5atOr] is equally understandable as [kal_jku'l_jatOr], just like [fi5O'sOf] would be equally understandable as [fil_jO'sOf]. Just compare the word in other languages. They all have calculator, kalkulator, calculateur (and I imagine Spanish calculador, Italian calcolatore, Latvian kalkulators etc., but I'm too lazy to check now), but every language pronounces it according to its own standards. Likewise, almost every languages has a word written "film", but even in the case of such a short word pronunciation differs greatly (in Dutch, we say [fIl@m], for instance). Thát is a rule that goes for almost all languages, Slavic and non-Slavic. Forms like "kal'kuljator" and "fil'm" look way too much like transcribed Cyrillic and don't improve understandability a bit.
That is because you treat consonant + ' as a separate phoneme, while I treat it as two separate things. The ' normally is a placeholder for j, but it is PRIMARILY a spelling device. Because nouns ending in a hard consonant are masculine by definition, the regular genitive of krov would be krova. Even if we say that feminine words can end in v etc., too, the regular loc.pl would be krovah instead of kr(o)vjah. Well, cerkev' can be changed into a normal feminine word cerkva, and krov' doesn't have a plural anyway. But I'm sure a few more of these babies will turn up eventually, and it would be good to have a ready-made solution for them. Of course, there wouldn't be a different in pronunciation between krov' and krov. And, as a established long ago, the writing of ' is optional in Slovianski (although I feel more and more inclined to let go of that rule).
As far as I'm concerned, it's not. You argued it yourself yesterday with regard to the reflexive pronoun. Since we established that CSl. ę becomes ja in Slovianski, we should stick to that.
In Polish, kończyć is imperfective, the perfective being skończyć. If Polish is the odd man out here, I'll comply to končat'. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Oct 13 2008, 10:22 AM Post #6 |
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Risk seems to be more clear than rizika |
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"I nent pochyby, e kdokoli chce a um, můe sobě stworiti jazyk krsn, bohat, libozwučn a wemoně dokonal: ale jazyk takow nebudě wce nrodnim, alebr osobnm jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". Frantiek Palack. Posudek o českm jazyku spisovnm, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 10:34 AM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I've been giving this a lot of thought, actually. There's only one thing we know for sure: the whole aspect system in Slavic is thoroughly screwed up. This is one of the very few things in Slovianski of which I think simplication will do more harm than good. With one exception: since the adjective for "simple" is prosti, the perfective verb is uprostit' and the imperfective verb uproszczat' (instead of upraszczat'). Well, imperfective vs. perfective verbs usually belong to one of the following categories: - impf. -jat' / pf. -it' - impf. -at' / pf. -nut' - impf. (verb) / pf. (preposition + verb) The latter goes also for verbs on -ovat': bombardovat' / vibombardovat'. I think we shouldn't overuse the ending -ovat'. We can already say that verbs on -at' and verbs on -ovat' in general are both imperfective when they are not preceded by a preposition. -jat'/-it' is a perfectly natural pair that appears many times in the dictinary file anyway: zloupotrebjat'/zloupotrebit', soprovodat'/soprovodit', unevinjat'/unevinit', to just cite a few on the first thirty entries. Eliminating it in a few cases and leaving it in a few others doesn't seem to make sense to me. And, the ending -ovat' (or -ivat' looks pretty much like a secondary imperfective: pisat' (vi.) "to write" > napisat' "to write down" > napisovat' "to be writing down, to have the habit of writing down".
Sure. Except that I don't treat s' as a phoneme, just as s that may or may not be pronounced [s_j] and carrying the message that the f.ex. the instrumental plural is (l)osjami instead of (l)osami.
Hahahahaha!!!!! I didn't know that!  Of course, if zapad is most common, we should have it. I just pretty much liked voshod for "East" instead of vostok, and thought it would make sense in that case to have zahod for "West".
In that case I'd suggest slovenijski, which would be the most regular and therefore logical solution. That is, if we really want to avoid "slovenski". I don't really have a problem with it myself. After all, we also write "serbski", don't we? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 12:10 PM Post #8 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Maybe, maybe not. Here is are the words "risk", "to risk" and "risky" in the Slavic languages: RU - риск; рисковать; рискованный BY - рызыка; рызыкаваць; ? UA - ризик; ризикувати; ризикований PL - ryzyko; ryzykować; ryzykowny CZ - riziko, risk; riskovat; riskantní SK - riziko, risk; riskovať; riskantný, rizikový SLO - (not in my dictionary) BCS - rizik; reskirati/rizikovati; riskantan, rizičan MK - ризик; ризикува, рискира; ризичен BG - риск; рискувам; рискован Running this through the voting machine, we get: FOR THE NOUN: – rizik(o): 3.75 votes – risk: 2 votes FOR THE VERB: – rizikovat': 2.625 votes – riskovat': 2.5 votes – riskirat': 0.625 votes FOR THE ADJECTIVE: – riskovani: 1.5 votes – rizikov(n)i: 1.25 votes – riskantni: 1.125 votes – rizični: 0.875 votes – rizikovani: 0.5 votes or, in short: rizik-: 2.625 votes risk-: 2.625 votes In other words, it's a close vote in any case. I think both "risk/riskovat'/riskovi" are equally understandable for all as "riziko/rizikovat'/rizični". But we should be consequent and use either "risk-" or "rizik-". Or, alternatively, we could have both possibilities = six words. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 01:05 PM Post #9 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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It's not, because of the final -i. But now that you mention it, it' might be a better solution than idet', at second thought. For the past tense it doesn't matter, because it's irregular anyway, but there is one other form that derives from the infinitive: the past passive participle and along with it the verbal noun. The verbal noun of idet' is idenje, the verbal noun of it' would be itje. I don't know what the other languages do, but I can tell that this is actually closer to what Polish does: iście. (of course these forms won't frequently occur as such, but in compounds they will: viitje/viidenje, preitje/preidenje, etc.)
Yes, but AFAIK only in three cases: dat', stat' and znat'. As you say, the suffix is not -avat' but -vat', added to a monosyllabic verb. Similarly, we might end up with čuvat', mivat' etc.
Hehehe. You can find the legend on my page titled "Word formation" (scroll down to the bottom of the page). I have a request, BTW. If you make any changes and/or additions, could you please mark them as such? That will make it easier for me to update my own dictionary (online soon).
I'm a bit unsure in this case myself. I much prefer the forms without j myself, but there is one problem: how else can we explain prosi- + -eni > prošeni and nes- + eni > neseni, if not by i turning j? Besides, not in all cases the j is bad. Actually, in cases like ljubjeni I think it's an improvement.
Hehe. In Polish przewód means "cable". All I can say is that pro- is totally absent in Polish. Personally, I can't really feel the difference between pro- and pre-. In any case, pro- is not in the grammar, at present.
Hmm, I'm a bit hesitant here. In a few cases it would definitely be better: sostojanje instead of sstojanje. sostavjat' instead of sstavjat'. But on the other hand, obdarovat' is obviously better than odarovat'. Besides, I'm VERY hesitant when it comes to multiple forms like v-/vo-, s-/so-. My feeling is that we could allow so- before s, but only then. But I'm open to discussion as well.
Ok. Yet, I'd still have trudni for "difficult" as well.
Nothing in particular, except that the former seems more logical to me.
Didn't we conclude that discussion a few days ago?
Isn't the comparative simply više-pozno? In the case of serdce the d is justified because of serdečni, but in the case of pozno I'm not so sure. Beside, if anything beside the normal form I'd say the comparative of pozno should be poznej.
Fine, but in that case it should be zautro or zajutro.
FWIW, Polish has "konferencja prasowa". Otherwise I'd say prasokonferencija (regular way of joining nouns) or preskonferencija (ugly but workable).
In that case I'd suggest poletet'. But odletet' means "fly away" to me, which is not the normal perfective equivalent of "to fly".
Okay, but I still think we should keep it as a literary/otherwise high form. Let's not abuse it. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 02:01 PM Post #10 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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A few more comments/suggestions for the dictionary: The following words are obviously English loans, but I've not the faintest clue what they are about: faul' "foul" raund "round" ternover "turnover" In these cases I have a clue, but I wonder if we need English here: brend "brand" fermer "farmer" Words that I completely don't understand, and I don't have a clue about where they come from: kleveta "slander" krijumčarit'/prokrijumčarit' "smuggle" obmedžovat'/obmedžit' "confine" odricatel’ni "negative": since we have positivni for "positive", wouldn't negativni be much likelier? povelitel’ni "imperative"; I'd suggest something like nakazatel'ni instead snabdet'/snabdit' "supply" The following seems wrong: kosteni mozok "marrow" kostni mozok "bone marrow" For the rest, I think these words can be improved: karantin "quarantine": I'd say kvarantina instead. kriza "crisis". Why not krizis? nastojašči "present". To me, this looks like "real" and like nothing else. Maybe we can circumscribe it somehow? pribuduči, or pristojači? perst "finger". AFAIK, all languages have palec for "finger". My feeling is that perst' would mean "fist". ubijca "murderer". Wouldn't ubitel' be more logical? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 02:02 PM Post #11 |
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Administrator
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It's funny that you don't prefer the "international" spelling for rizik but I seriously don't care either way, you've said yourself it was really close you say that obdarovat' is better than odarovat' I don't feel it's better because Russian has odarovat' we should make a decision about all the cases... maybe s/so- but only ob for all cases or something like that poletet' is a good perfective form btw, it shouldn't zautro because it's "za utra" - all languages have -tra here because it's logical zajtra is the form that looks the best to me, but zajutra is fine too zautra is a little bit meh because it's a combination of two vowels... East Slavic has zavtra for that reason |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 02:21 PM Post #12 |
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faul/raund/ternover are probably football terms, since it's an English sport I think it's OK to use English terms medža is "border" btw so obmedžovat' is to "confine to a border/limit" ricat' is the iterative of rekti - say, so odricat' is literally to "say away", to deny, odricatel'ni is "negative" but I don't have a problem with negativni vol'a - will, velit' - to will, povelit' - to will (perf.), povelitel'ni - imperative would you understand snabdžat'? if not, what do you suggest? I don't see how ubitel' would be more logical since we DO have -ca suffix Would you prefer ubijec? naperstok then would mean "brass knuckles" if perst meant "fist" but it means "thimble" because perst means "finger" I didn't change any of the words since my first post, yet how would I mark the ones I changed? Just post them in here? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 02:25 PM Post #13 |
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Well, if s' and z' are introduced as phonemes, I would then start spelling the reflexive pronoun as s'a |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 02:27 PM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I would agree with that solution.
In that case I'd by all means say zajutra. Keep in mind that Polish jutro means only "tomorrow" and has nothing do to with "morning". Where Russian says zavtra utrom, Polish says jutro rano. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 02:31 PM Post #15 |
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Yes, but Polish is stupid that way changed to zajutra |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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