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CZ/SZ/??
Topic Started: Sep 8 2008, 09:27 AM (3,191 Views)
IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Gabriel
 
Sz in Hungarian is attested to mean /s/. Zs only makes sense as long as s means //, just like in Hungarian: zs = /z/ --> assimilation --> //. That's why I still like cz/sz/zz, at least it is consistent.

It's an old discussion. Mind you, the argument that ZS is attested in Hungarian does not mean important the Hungarian system. Indeed, in Hungarian sz = /s/, s = //, cs = /č/, and AFAIK cz = /ts/.
But that's not the point. Slavic orthographies represent this sound either by , by ż or by ж. The basic premise of Slovianski is that it can be written on any Slavic keyboard, which gives us four different orthographies:
- Latinica with č// (Czech, Slovak, Slovene, BCS, Sorbian)
- Latinica with cz/sz/ż (Polish, Kashubian, Silesian)
- Kirilica with й/ь (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian, Bulgarian)
- Kirilica with ј (Serbian, Macedonian)

ASCIIfication is a different can of worms. Of course, because the Polish version already eliminates two of the three hačeks, it seems logical to use it as a starting point, and that's why SZ/CZ are more or less taken for granted, while ZS/ZZ are supposed to fit best with them. But let's be honest: it's nowhere written that it SHOULD be that way.

But then, we've been over this again and again in the past, until we came to the conclusion that ZS enjoys just a little more support than ZZ, but most of all that we basically use Č// and leave the choice for asciification to the writer. Of course, I agree that CX/SX/ZX would be the most logical and "painless" solution for asciification, but why have CX and SX if we already have CZ and SZ anyway? In other words, why asciify something that has already been asciified? So, the only character that REALLY is a problem is : and personally, I don't care much how people asciify it. Personally, I prefer ZS, but I won't bite anybody who uses ZZ, or even ZX.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Quote:
 
It's an old discussion. Mind you, the argument that ZS is attested in Hungarian does not mean important the Hungarian system. Indeed, in Hungarian sz = /s/, s = /š/, cs = /č/, and AFAIK cz = /ts/.


NO! c makes /ts/ like in slavic languages, cz does not exist except for foreign surnames. The presence of cz is one sure fire way to tell that a text is not Hungarian and in all likelyhood polish, which for some reason people confuse with hungarian. we only use the sz cs zs dz ty gy ny ly dzs polygraphs

This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand I just don't like people confusing hungarian and slavic orthography.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
NO! c makes /ts/ like in slavic languages, cz does not exist except for foreign surnames. The presence of cz is one sure fire way to tell that a text is not Hungarian and in all likelyhood polish, which for some reason people confuse with hungarian.

Hmm, according to my Hungarian grammar CZ occurs in names (also in Hungarian names, like Rkczi, Vloczy and Trkenczy, and its pronunciation is like C /ts/.

Quote:
 
This has nothing to do with the discussion at hand I just don't like people confusing hungarian and slavic orthography.

Right, but you can't deny that there are huge phonological similarities between the Slavic languages and non-Slavic language like Hungarian, Albanian or Latvian. Each of these languages has found its own orthographic solutions. Like I said, this is not about importing the Hungarian system, but about finding a solution that is attested at least somewhere, if not in a Slavic language, then at least in a language with a similar phonology.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Indeed those names are legit but those do not follow the rules of Hungarian instead they follow more polish rules. There was a trend among nobility to change the surname suffix -fi (old form of "son of") to -ffy to make it more posh. Presumably similar things happened here because otherwise there'd be no y in those names either. And in those names they are pronounced /ts/ although I think in some circumstances they can also be /tS/

and I've no complaints against zs, I think that our phonologies are similar but not remarkably so, the basic sound set of m n p b t d k g f v s z S Z h l r c C dz dZ is pretty common but I have often thought on how similar our orthographies are.

in fact the zs solution (for z+S) is used afaik in yiddish as well as זש

For my money in either case the best system is the BCS cyrill orthography. All the joys of russian without all the special softening letters.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
That's basically what the situation is like already: four different orthographies that can be used interchangeably to make sure that Slovianski can be written on any Slavic keyboard. Everybody is free to use whichever orthography he prefers. The reason I use only two of them on my website is that it would look strange to have the same text four times in a row. But for the record, I don't think any of these four should have precedence over the rest.

The advantage of Serbian Cyrillic is of course that it allows a 1:1 transcription with non-Polish Latinica. However, it has its issues as well. For example that Serbian Cyrillic does not have R', S' or Z' and does not have a soft sign either. Even if we'd adopt S' and Z' from the new Montenegrin orthography, that would still leave us with R'. But then, it can of course be written as RJ.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
Apr 12 2010, 04:06 AM
That's basically what the situation is like already: four different orthographies that can be used interchangeably to make sure that Slovianski can be written on any Slavic keyboard. Everybody is free to use whichever orthography he prefers. The reason I use only two of them on my website is that it would look strange to have the same text four times in a row. But for the record, I don't think any of these four should have precedence over the rest.

The advantage of Serbian Cyrillic is of course that it allows a 1:1 transcription with non-Polish Latinica. However, it has its issues as well. For example that Serbian Cyrillic does not have R', S' or Z' and does not have a soft sign either. Even if we'd adopt S' and Z' from the new Montenegrin orthography, that would still leave us with R'. But then, it can of course be written as RJ.

or just р́
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Yeah, I thought of that possibility too. But is there any Cyrillic orthopgraphy that uses the apostrophe as a softener? I don't really know what would the best solution for Serbians here. Perhaps Drazsen can help us out here.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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IJzeren Jan
Apr 12 2010, 11:45 AM
Yeah, I thought of that possibility too. But is there any Cyrillic orthopgraphy that uses the apostrophe as a softener? I don't really know what would the best solution for Serbians here. Perhaps Drazsen can help us out here.

well you're the one who proposed using с́ and з́ so why wouldn't р́ be logical?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
I'm not proposing anything here. Montenegrin adopt two new letters, С́ and З́ , but I don't think these are of any use to us. A Serbian keyboard probably won't have these, so it's really not much of an option. I guess there are only two serious option here: either Р', С', З' (i.e. with apostrophes), or РЈ, СЈ, ЗЈ.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Brun

Forgive my if I interrupt, but maybe just use rz like in polish? Even polish native speakers makes many time speling mistake betwen dialectic sign and "rz"
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Jan van Steenbergen
The trouble is that Polish rz comes from softened r, so it would be etymologically incorrect. If we'd apply it, it would only occur in cases where Polish has , never in cases where Polish has rz.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Brun

Quote:
 
The trouble is that Polish rz comes from softened r, so it would be etymologically incorrect.

This is obviously true.
But we are talking in this topic, how graphical present sound. And to be precise: how to present voice, when we don't have proper keyboard. When there is no "Ż" or "".

You adapt hungarian ZS, that does not exist in any Slavic language, so is etymologically incorrect as well.

rz is historical way how one slavic nation write voice using pure latin script.

imho the "rz" has more in common with the Slavic than "zs"


btw: SH, CH, ZH or SX, CX, ZX look nice as well. It looks far more better, when all three digraphs have same structure
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iopq
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The problem is not etymology
The problem is I can write mozse and a Pole would figure it out... maybe
but if I write morze there is a 100% chance that he will be confused and will think I meant Slovianski more
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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Brun

True, but sooner or later you will face problem like this anyway.

BTW how many words in slovianski's dictionary makes problem like mozse?

Polish users can be confused, true. But they will recognize sound, and understand meaning from context for sure.

I have a dyslexia, and even now, sometimes i write "może", "że" like "morze", "rze" ... (shame!!!). Allways my text are recognizable, for readers.

Lets focus for a while on russian an other users. It is any problem for them?
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steeven
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Brun
Apr 23 2010, 09:40 PM
btw: SH, CH, ZH or SX, CX, ZX look nice as well.

It looks far more better, when all three digraphs have same structure

I agree with newbie Brun.
(fresh blood always offers refreshing views! B) )

Unfortunately, "ZZ" will never work.
"ZH" along with counterparts "SH" and "CH" cannot work with the conflicting "H".
"ZS" would need "CS" and "SS" to have uniform "structure". Ding!

"Q" "W" and "Y" are available, but conflict much too much with existing languages' uses thereof.

That only leaves three workable choices IMO:

1. Use diacritical marks - which we will always wish to do, however, this forum space is clear example of frustration in this regard...
2. "CX" - "SX" and "ZX" - no conflicts.
Yes,yes, the "X" looks funny, but let's "get over it".
OR
3. just use "C" "S" and "Z" with no diacritical marks whatsoever.

These are my choices.
Tutovi sou moje vizbori.

:D
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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