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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 8 2008, 09:27 AM (3,193 Views) | |
| iopq | Sep 18 2008, 02:57 PM Post #16 |
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How do we write Pjotr Bezsonov |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 18 2008, 03:35 PM Post #17 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Just like that. Or possibly, to avoid confusion, like "Bez-sonov". Polish has a few cases like that as well, for example "marznąć" (in which -rz- is pronounced [ rz ] and not [ ž ]). My transliterator deals with it in such way: if "zs" should be treated separately, you can write "z#s" in the input field; in that case, the outcome in the variant with hacheks will be "zs" instead of "ž", and in Cyrillic it gives "зс" instead of "ж". (in the ZZ variant, the same thing applied to these cases, of course) Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 25 2008, 04:16 PM Post #18 |
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Well, not only the apostrophe, but also the "z" (in "cz" and "sz"), and the "s" (in "zs") already serve another purpose. If we want digraphs whose parts don't serve another purpose, the only possibilities are: cq, sq, zq cw, sw, zw cx, sx, zx cy, sy, zy or even: y, w, x The only difference between zs and z' is that words like "bezsmertni" will be confusing always, while words with z' will only be confusing until you learn Slovianski phonology (i.e. that it has no soft z, at least not a written one).
We should probably leave out personal feelings ... z'ena, etaz' definitely look better to me than zsena, etazs.
The first advantage is a personal feeling. The second advantage works for zs over zz, but not for zs over z'. The third advantage applies to z'ena, z'olti, moz'e, etaz', too. The last disadvantage is shared by both zs and z', but to a lesser degree by the latter, as I wrote above. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 3 2008, 07:30 PM Post #19 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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As for the variants involving q, w, y: to me these options are completely counterintuitive. The only sensible of these options is the Slovio solution with cx/sx/zx. I'd personally prefer to keep it as an option, but not a standard one.
Granted. These are subjective. But I also think the creator of a language is entitled to use his own aesthetic taste in making choices.
The problem is that in Slovianski the apostrophe fulfills the role of a placeholder for j. Ergo: z' = zj. I'm sure there may be a few cases of zj/z' in Slovianski, although I agree they will be pretty rare. But even if they are rare, they exist in the living Slavic languages. To me, z' looks like Polish , not like Polish . And therefore, this one appears a bit counterintuitive to me as well. All in all, I think neither option, ZZ, ZS or Z' is ideal. My own personal order of preference would be ZS, ZZ, Z'. It's just that I thoroughly dislike the abundance of apostrophes in texts. I'm well aware that I was the one who introduced it in Slovianski in the first place, but only in a few restricted cases. To me things like mor'e, z'ena are things that make me wonder if I shouldn't have shut up two years ago. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 4 2008, 01:32 AM Post #20 |
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izjat' would be one
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 12 2008, 03:31 PM Post #21 |
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AFter z it doesn't.
Certainly, that's a problem. But as far as I am concerned, I might not even decipher that "zs" or "zz" are meant to be digraphs instead of just z+s or z+z. ' at least is a kind of special sign that signalises "not everything is as it appears".
Agreed. Although my personal order of preference would be exactly opposite. |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 02:13 AM Post #22 |
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I still like sx, cx, zx |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 13 2008, 01:09 PM Post #23 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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It's one of the possibilities offered by my transliteration program. But the more I think about it, the more I think it doesn't really matter how we asciify Slovianski. Let everybody write it the way he prefers, as long as we all agree that the preferred solution is // anyway, and as long as we stick to that on our on grammar pages. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 13 2008, 01:34 PM Post #24 |
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I agree with that |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| ''' | Mar 1 2010, 09:40 AM Post #25 |
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This suprised me too, Many of our slavic neighbours are not on best terms with us. Our special relationship with Poland not with standing Lengyel Magyar, kt j bart, egytt harcol 's issza bort we're not beloved: Liked by - Poland (not a neighbour), Croatia Hated by - Serbia, Slovakia, possibly slovenia, and well, we make a big thing out of the Russian conquest from 45-89. Though as far as I'm concerned it's reeeaaaally time to move on from that. Nonetheless, despite a lot of slavs no doubt opposing the zs, and some hungarians getting touchy about having our precious zs stolen, wouldn't the mere fact that zs is not of slavic origin iritate the others? I think it works, it suits the pattern well enough, it represents the /Z/ sound anyway and it's pretty intuitive, but what do latin-script slavs do when they don't have their diacritics?
When I make scripts, I usually insert a ' into what would otherwise be a digraph making z's which I think looks somewhat more natural and discreet than z-s.
Strangely I find myself liking this. Some languages to form sh and zh through palatalisation of s and z, so it makes strange sense and y doesn't look out of place in slavic. |
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20/♂/hetero/atheist/★☭ | |
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| Vojta | Mar 1 2010, 12:47 PM Post #26 |
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I propose a compromise between traditional old-czech and polish latin script used from 12c. till today and modern russian latin transcription: SZ CZ ZH (ZS can also work, but may be misinterpreted with SZ) (CH, SH is confusing for all Slaves writing in latin) V. |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Mar 1 2010, 03:42 PM Post #27 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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It is an old discussion. The truth is that there is no perfect solution. I've seen many different proposals, but most of them seem to have disadvantages that are bigger than the advantages. CX/SX/ZX = ugly and unnatural, but at least consistent and unambiguous. C'/S'/Z' = Too many apostrophes, besides, for a Pole it reads like soft s () C*/S*/Z* = Makes it look like a computer program C^/S^/Z^ = idem Q/W/X/Y = no comment CH/SH/ZH = English, especially CH is ambiguous CZ/SZ/ZH = makes sense. But if ZH, why not SH? CZ/SZ/ZZ = consistent, but attested nowhere. We tried it, but nobody liked ZZ. CZ/SZ/ZS = sort of consistent and at least attested in Hungarian. ZH, ZS and ZZ all can create ambiguity in combination with bez-/iz-/roz-: rozsipati, izsledovatel' bezzubni, rozzzaliti rozhoditi, izhod At last, we came to the conclusion that it doesn't really make sense to keep fighting over this. On the previous forum, we had a poll and ZS came out as the winner, and that was pretty much the end of the story. The ultimate conclusion was that the hacheks are to be preferred, and as far as asciification goes, that we suggest ZS but that everybody will do it his own way no matter what. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| steeven | Mar 1 2010, 04:55 PM Post #28 |
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I agree with JAN, that it really does not matter what is used (when writing on an online webpage which is "uncooperative" or "challenged" for diacritical marked letters). The test dictionary - TEST DICTIONARY, however, in its "underlying form" uses the letter "x" because it does not conflict with almost any word (I believe there may be 1 "abbreviation" with which it conflicts). The other way of posting, of course, would be simply to write "c" "s" and "z" without accent marks. Not the best way. And, finally, perhaps the use of the letter "y" is not all that bad? (but that's a whole other line of discussion, which I don't see any need to really pursue). Thank you. |
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Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation: 1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic 2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?" 3. Avoid "conflicts" www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Mar 1 2010, 05:19 PM Post #29 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Quite so. The truth is that no solution is perfect, and none of the Slavic languages is particularly helpful in this case. Of course, we all know ZH from transcribed Russian, but there it is always used in conjunction with SH, CH and (mutatis mutandis) KH. In that case borrowing from Hungarian seems like a better idea to me.
Actually, there's a very simple trick to that: just use some character that otherwise wouldn't be used (I use #), and place it between two characters that need to be treated separately. That works also for DIALEKT, IDIOT and the like. Another way would be dividing the words into syllables: ZSE.NA, ROZ.SI.PA.TI, BEZ.ZUB.NI, PIA.TI, VI.A.DUKT, I.DI.OT. That would do the trick as well. The dot (or another character) can be filtered out in the output, if necessary. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Vojta | Mar 3 2010, 08:06 AM Post #30 |
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Tuto jest točno zato v NS jazyku imajeme tvdrij jer jako apostrof medu sglasnim predlogom i sglasnim korenom: rozsipati, izsledovatelj bezzubni, rozzhaliti rozhoditi, izhod V. |
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Vojtěch Merunka НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org | |
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