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CZ/SZ/??
Topic Started: Sep 8 2008, 09:27 AM (3,193 Views)
iopq
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How do we write Pjotr Bezsonov
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
How do we write Pjotr Bezsonov


Just like that. Or possibly, to avoid confusion, like "Bez-sonov". Polish has a few cases like that as well, for example "marznąć" (in which -rz- is pronounced [ rz ] and not [ ž ]).

My transliterator deals with it in such way: if "zs" should be treated separately, you can write "z#s" in the input field; in that case, the outcome in the variant with hacheks will be "zs" instead of "ž", and in Cyrillic it gives "зс" instead of "ж".

(in the ZZ variant, the same thing applied to these cases, of course)

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Gabriel Svoboda

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CZ/SZ/Z'
...
The apostrophe already serves another purpose.


Well, not only the apostrophe, but also the "z" (in "cz" and "sz"), and the "s" (in "zs") already serve another purpose. If we want digraphs whose parts don't serve another purpose, the only possibilities are:

cq, sq, zq
cw, sw, zw
cx, sx, zx
cy, sy, zy

or even:
y, w, x

The only difference between zs and z' is that words like "bezsmertni" will be confusing always, while words with z' will only be confusing until you learn Slovianski phonology (i.e. that it has no soft z, at least not a written one).

Quote:
 
Besides, IMO it's ugly.


We should probably leave out personal feelings ... z'ena, etaz' definitely look better to me than zsena, etazs.

Quote:
 
CZ/SZ/ZS
In my opinion, it has three advantages over ZZ:
- first of all, it des occur in a natural language with a Slavic-like phonology, namely Hungarian; and indeed, it looks more natural and generally nicer, IMO;
- it is not a digraph that consists of twice the same letter, which many would intuitively understand as way to lengthen or double it;
- I'm sure most people will intuitively understand it: zsena, zsolti, mozse, etazs
It has also one disadvantage, but that's a disadvantage it shares with ZZ, namely that ZS can also occur as two seperate letters, usually (if not always) as a result of the prefixes "bez-" and "roz-" with a root starting with "s-". And the solution is the same as well: use a hyphen in doubtful cases.


The first advantage is a personal feeling.
The second advantage works for zs over zz, but not for zs over z'.
The third advantage applies to z'ena, z'olti, moz'e, etaz', too.
The last disadvantage is shared by both zs and z', but to a lesser degree by the latter, as I wrote above.
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Jan van Steenbergen
As for the variants involving q, w, y: to me these options are completely counterintuitive. The only sensible of these options is the Slovio solution with cx/sx/zx. I'd personally prefer to keep it as an option, but not a standard one.

Quote:
 
We should probably leave out personal feelings


Granted. These are subjective. But I also think the creator of a language is entitled to use his own aesthetic taste in making choices.

Quote:
 
The only difference between zs and z' is that words like "bezsmertni" will be confusing always, while words with z' will only be confusing until you learn Slovianski phonology (i.e. that it has no soft z, at least not a written one).


The problem is that in Slovianski the apostrophe fulfills the role of a placeholder for j. Ergo: z' = zj. I'm sure there may be a few cases of zj/z' in Slovianski, although I agree they will be pretty rare. But even if they are rare, they exist in the living Slavic languages. To me, z' looks like Polish , not like Polish . And therefore, this one appears a bit counterintuitive to me as well.

All in all, I think neither option, ZZ, ZS or Z' is ideal. My own personal order of preference would be ZS, ZZ, Z'. It's just that I thoroughly dislike the abundance of apostrophes in texts. I'm well aware that I was the one who introduced it in Slovianski in the first place, but only in a few restricted cases. To me things like mor'e, z'ena are things that make me wonder if I shouldn't have shut up two years ago.

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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izjat' would be one :D
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

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The problem is that in Slovianski the apostrophe fulfills the role of a placeholder for j.


AFter z it doesn't.

Quote:
 
To me, z' looks like Polish ?, not like Polish ?.


Certainly, that's a problem. But as far as I am concerned, I might not even decipher that "zs" or "zz" are meant to be digraphs instead of just z+s or z+z. ' at least is a kind of special sign that signalises "not everything is as it appears".

Quote:
 
All in all, I think neither option, ZZ, ZS or Z' is ideal. My own personal order of preference would be ZS, ZZ, Z'.


Agreed. Although my personal order of preference would be exactly opposite.
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iopq
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I still like sx, cx, zx
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
It's one of the possibilities offered by my transliteration program.
But the more I think about it, the more I think it doesn't really matter how we asciify Slovianski. Let everybody write it the way he prefers, as long as we all agree that the preferred solution is // anyway, and as long as we stick to that on our on grammar pages.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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I agree with that
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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'''
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Don't forget some Slavic nationalisms are based on hating anything Hungarian. :-)
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Now that I think of it, why would they? After all, we're stealing from the Hungarians one of their most precious jewels! (or should I say: dzsewels?)
Quote:
 
They'll be angry because it's not Slavic!


This suprised me too, Many of our slavic neighbours are not on best terms with us. Our special relationship with Poland not with standing Lengyel Magyar, kt j bart, egytt harcol 's issza bort we're not beloved:
Liked by - Poland (not a neighbour), Croatia
Hated by - Serbia, Slovakia, possibly slovenia, and well, we make a big thing out of the Russian conquest from 45-89. Though as far as I'm concerned it's reeeaaaally time to move on from that.

Nonetheless, despite a lot of slavs no doubt opposing the zs, and some hungarians getting touchy about having our precious zs stolen, wouldn't the mere fact that zs is not of slavic origin iritate the others? I think it works, it suits the pattern well enough, it represents the /Z/ sound anyway and it's pretty intuitive, but what do latin-script slavs do when they don't have their diacritics?
Quote:
 
It has also one disadvantage, but that's a disadvantage it shares with ZZ, namely that ZS can also occur as two seperate letters, usually (if not always) as a result of the prefixes "bez-" and "roz-" with a root starting with "s-". And the solution is the same as well: use a hyphen in doubtful cases.

When I make scripts, I usually insert a ' into what would otherwise be a digraph making z's which I think looks somewhat more natural and discreet than z-s.
Quote:
 
cy, sy, zy

Strangely I find myself liking this. Some languages to form sh and zh through palatalisation of s and z, so it makes strange sense and y doesn't look out of place in slavic.
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Vojta
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I propose a compromise between traditional old-czech and polish latin script used from 12c. till today and modern russian latin transcription:

SZ
CZ
ZH

(ZS can also work, but may be misinterpreted with SZ)
(CH, SH is confusing for all Slaves writing in latin)

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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Jan van Steenbergen
It is an old discussion. The truth is that there is no perfect solution. I've seen many different proposals, but most of them seem to have disadvantages that are bigger than the advantages.
CX/SX/ZX = ugly and unnatural, but at least consistent and unambiguous.
C'/S'/Z' = Too many apostrophes, besides, for a Pole it reads like soft s ()
C*/S*/Z* = Makes it look like a computer program
C^/S^/Z^ = idem
Q/W/X/Y = no comment
CH/SH/ZH = English, especially CH is ambiguous
CZ/SZ/ZH = makes sense. But if ZH, why not SH?
CZ/SZ/ZZ = consistent, but attested nowhere. We tried it, but nobody liked ZZ.
CZ/SZ/ZS = sort of consistent and at least attested in Hungarian.

ZH, ZS and ZZ all can create ambiguity in combination with bez-/iz-/roz-:
rozsipati, izsledovatel'
bezzubni, rozzzaliti
rozhoditi, izhod

At last, we came to the conclusion that it doesn't really make sense to keep fighting over this. On the previous forum, we had a poll and ZS came out as the winner, and that was pretty much the end of the story. The ultimate conclusion was that the hacheks are to be preferred, and as far as asciification goes, that we suggest ZS but that everybody will do it his own way no matter what.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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steeven
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I agree with JAN, that it really does not matter what is used (when writing on an online webpage which is "uncooperative" or "challenged" for diacritical marked letters).

The test dictionary - TEST DICTIONARY, however, in its "underlying form" uses the letter "x" because it does not conflict with almost any word (I believe there may be 1 "abbreviation" with which it conflicts).

The other way of posting, of course, would be simply to write "c" "s" and "z" without accent marks. Not the best way.

And, finally, perhaps the use of the letter "y" is not all that bad? (but that's a whole other line of discussion, which I don't see any need to really pursue).
Thank you.
Please consider 3 levels of "tests" for word formulation:

1. Logical, Analytical or Commonly Slavic
2. That it "makes sense" - to the people (not just the creators) - "will the people both accept & use it?"

3. Avoid "conflicts"
www.MEDUSLOVJANSKI.com - Grammar
www.INTERSLAVIC.info - Lexicon
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Steeven
 
I agree with JAN, that it really does not matter what is used (when writing on an online webpage which is "uncooperative" or "challenged" for diacritical marked letters).

Quite so. The truth is that no solution is perfect, and none of the Slavic languages is particularly helpful in this case. Of course, we all know ZH from transcribed Russian, but there it is always used in conjunction with SH, CH and (mutatis mutandis) KH. In that case borrowing from Hungarian seems like a better idea to me.

Quote:
 
The test dictionary - TEST DICTIONARY, however, in its "underlying form" uses the letter "x" because it does not conflict with almost any word (I believe there may be 1 "abbreviation" with which it conflicts).

Actually, there's a very simple trick to that: just use some character that otherwise wouldn't be used (I use #), and place it between two characters that need to be treated separately. That works also for DIALEKT, IDIOT and the like.

Another way would be dividing the words into syllables:
ZSE.NA, ROZ.SI.PA.TI, BEZ.ZUB.NI, PIA.TI, VI.A.DUKT, I.DI.OT. That would do the trick as well. The dot (or another character) can be filtered out in the output, if necessary.
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Vojta
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IJzeren Jan
Mar 1 2010, 03:42 PM

rozsipati, izsledovatel'
bezzubni, rozzzaliti
rozhoditi, izhod


:D :D :D

Tuto jest točno zato v NS jazyku imajeme tvdrij jer jako apostrof medu sglasnim predlogom i sglasnim korenom:

rozsipati, izsledovatelj
bezzubni, rozzhaliti
rozhoditi, izhod

V.

Vojtěch Merunka
НОВОСЛОВЯНСКИ http://neoslavonic.org
СЛОВЯНСКИ СОВЕЗ http://slovane.org
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