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| CZ/SZ/?? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 8 2008, 09:27 AM (3,188 Views) | |
| IJzeren Jan | Sep 8 2008, 09:27 AM Post #1 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I was just going throught this old discussion. Obviously, the CZ/SZ/ZZ solution we picked back in 2006 (after quite some discussion) is not satisfactory to everybody. Let's take a look at the proposals thus far... CZ/SZ/ZZ +: CZ and SZ are obvious choices, because they are both clear and natural. ZZ is a logical consequence of CZ/SZ. -: ZZ doesn't exist anywhere. In some cases the sequence Z-Z can occur. CZ/SZ/Z' +: CZ and SZ are obvious choices. The apostrophe reminds of the Polish dot. -: The apostrophe already serves another purpose. Besides, IMO it's ugly. CX/SX/ZX +: It is unambiguous. It is consequent. -: It is unnatural. It is ugly. CH/SH/ZH +: Exists in many transcription systems from Cyrillic into Latin script. -: Too English. CH is naturally understood as [x] by many. SH classes with cases like "shema". Can work only if we also introduce KH. C'/S'/Z' +: The apostrophes might remind of hačeks. It is consequent. -: The apostrophes already fulfill a different role. Reminds more of Cyrillic сь than of ш. Besides, it's ugly. C^/S^/Z^ +: The association with hačeks is obvious. It's logical and consequent. -: Not easy to write for anybody. Way too ugly. CC/SS/ZZ +: ... -: This is just generalising the disadvantages of ZZ to the rest. That's it in a nutshell. I may have forgotten something, but I think the serious candidates have been mentioned now. In my opinion, the only serious candidates are CZ/SZ/ZZ and CX/SX/ZX. Both have some disadvantages as well, but both are perfectly workable. Personally, I dislike all those Xs in a text; I find it ugly and Slovianski suddenly starts to remind very much of Slovio. But that's a matter of taste. But let me reiterate the proposal I made two years ago: CZ/SZ/ZS In my opinion, it has three advantages over ZZ: - first of all, it dóes occur in a natural language with a Slavic-like phonology, namely Hungarian; and indeed, it looks more natural and generally nicer, IMO; - it is not a digraph that consists of twice the same letter, which many would intuitively understand as way to lengthen or double it; - I'm sure most people will intuitively understand it: zsena, zsolti, mozse, etazs It has also one disadvantage, but that's a disadvantage it shares with ZZ, namely that ZS can also occur as two seperate letters, usually (if not always) as a result of the prefixes "bez-" and "roz-" with a root starting with "s-". And the solution is the same as well: use a hyphen in doubtful cases. Not really a serious proposal, but maybe worth pondering as well, is this one: CJ/SJ/ZJ This is actually (more or less) how Cyrillic is transcribed into Dutch, and also into the Scandinavian languages. Personally, I don't think it looks nice, but it has at least one advantage over all the others, namely this: the distinction between hard and soft stems plays a role in both declension and conjugations. Instead of saying: "stems ending on -č, š, ž, j" we would just say "stems ending on j". Prosit' > prošeni ("prosjeni") would become a matter of complete regularity. But then again, I see quite some disadvantages, too, so please don't treat this as a serious proposal. However, CZ/SZ/ZS IS a serious proposal. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 8 2008, 09:30 AM Post #2 |
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Administrator
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Phonetics, yes, but surely not phonology Note that Hungarian uses s for š and sz for s, reversed from Polish We might have to use trigraphs too, if we mirror Hungarian: Zaporizzsa |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 8 2008, 10:12 AM Post #3 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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That's a matter of orthography. Of course, I'm not proposing writing something like: Szlovianszki jeszt mnogo proszti megyunarodni jazik, ktori vsze Szlovyani mogut rozumety pri pervom csitanye...! ![]() But borrowing ZS from Hungarian wouldn't be a bad idea. In any case, I think it's better than ZZ.
In this case I'd say: Zaporizszsa. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 8 2008, 11:06 AM Post #4 |
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Administrator
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oh wow that is pretty good though More like: Szlovjánszki jeszt mnogo proszti megyunárodni jazik ktori vsze Szlovjáni mogut rozumety pri pervom csitánye |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 8 2008, 12:08 PM Post #5 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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:lol: How about Italian? Slovianschi jest mnogo prosti meggiunarodni iazic ctori vse Slovviani mogut rozumet pri pervom citanie. Or Albanian: Sllovianski jest mnogo prrosti mexhunarodni jaziq, ktorri vshe Slloviani moxhut rozumet' pri përrvom çitanjë. Let's not even try Irish! :ph43r: |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 8 2008, 12:50 PM Post #6 |
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Let's stay with the Reichsslawisch orthography. :-) Szlowianßki jeßt mnogo proßti medzsunarodni Jasik, ktori vsche Szlowjani mogut rosumety pri pervom Tschitanie. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 12 2008, 10:32 AM Post #7 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Since there seem to be no objections, may I assume we'll use ZS instead of ZZ as the "official" asciification? If so, I'll update my pages accordingly. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 12 2008, 01:54 PM Post #8 |
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Don't forget some Slavic nationalisms are based on hating anything Hungarian. :-) |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 12 2008, 03:32 PM Post #9 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I know. So, until the Hungarian-bashers come up with a better idea, let's use ZS.
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 12 2008, 10:54 PM Post #10 |
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Administrator
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OK, now I'm sold Slovioists will be angryyyy |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 13 2008, 10:31 AM Post #11 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Amen! EDIT: Now that I think of it, why would they? After all, we're stealing from the Hungarians one of their most precious jewels! (or should I say: dzsewels?) |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 14 2008, 01:26 AM Post #12 |
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They'll be angry because it's not Slavic! |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Bartek-Pole | Sep 15 2008, 07:47 PM Post #13 |
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"hating"? Maybe in Slovakia, but surely not in Poland. We call Hungarians our true brothers like other Slavs. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 15 2008, 08:14 PM Post #14 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Oh, I know, of course! But the truth is that indeed many Slavic nationalists and Pan-Slavists hate the Hungarians. As far as I have seen, that opinions is pretty common in Slovio circles. Anyway, I'm glad that Slovianski is just a language and not some political tool. Another plus for Slovianski, methinks, even though it has nothing to do with the language itself. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 15 2008, 08:47 PM Post #15 |
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Administrator
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It's true, Slovio forums are filled with people who bash Hungarians, Germans, etc. basically any nation that borders a Slavic one |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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2:14 PM Jul 11