| Dobrodošli na forum Medžuslovjanskogo jezyka! Želajemo vam mnogo prijemnosti. Добродошли на форум Меджусловјанского језыка! Желајемо вам много пријемности. Welcome to Interslavic! We hope you enjoy your visit. Sejčas pogledajete naše forum kako gosť. To znači, že imajete ograničeny dostup do někojih česti forum i ne možete koristati vse funkcije. Ako li pristupite v našu grupu, budete imati svobodny dostup do sekcij preznačenyh jedino za členov, na pr. založeňje profila, izsylaňje privatnyh poslaň i učestničstvo v glasovaňjah. Zapisaňje se jest prosto, bystro i vpolno bezplatno. Сејчас погледајете наше форум како гость. То значи, же имајете ограничены доступ до некојих чести форум и не можете користати все функције. Ако ли приступите в нашу групу, будете имати свободны доступ до секциј презначеных једино за членов, на пр. заложеньје профила, изсыланьје приватных послань и учестничство в гласованьјах. Записаньје се јест просто, быстро и вполно безплатно. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Pristupite v našu grupu! Приступите в нашу групу! Join our community! Ako li už jeste člen, prijavite se, že byste mogli koristati vse možnosti: Ако ли уж јесте член, пријавите се, же бысте могли користати все можности: If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 7 2008, 01:27 PM (2,322 Views) | |
| iopq | Oct 9 2008, 01:04 PM Post #46 |
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I've already posted my tables on this forum http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pOT...6Y7GNeHAQ&hl=en look at the close relation between posessives and adjectives posessives have the same endings as adjectives that end in -j with the o/e rule what you're proposing is that we create a new table for moje and another table for adjectives with my proposal the two tables are one and the same The table at http://slovianski.narod.ru/comparation.htm is done based on my table, but I don't control that site |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 9 2008, 01:58 PM Post #47 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Hmm, I can't open it.
That is true. But then, moj, tvoj and svoj are the only adjectives that end in -j. Which means that we implicitly apply the o/e rule, but don't bother our users with it.
That won't change the fact that declension is the same. I mean, for every noun declension I give three examples, but that doesn't mean there are twelve declensions; it's merely a way to display that the endings are the same for different words. Anyway, I've updated my grammar pages. The f.instr.sg. is -u. So: s zsenu, s zemlju, s jednostju, s mišu. But now, here's a question: would the same change also apply to adjectives? E.g. s tu dobru zsenu, s tuttu plodnu zemlju, s tamtu malu mišu. I'm inclined to go for that solution. Which leaves us with the personal pronouns: s mnu, s tobu? Or (also possible, since they have their own declension anyway) s mnoju, s toboju? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 9 2008, 02:51 PM Post #48 |
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whoops, wrong URL http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pOT...SN09pW6Y7GNeHAQ this is the public URL I don't have -u as the instrumental, that's a mistake on that website Also, I didn't mean ending in -j I meant the root ending in -j or any soft consonant the only difference is that we can say "possessives use -j in the nominative and get declined normally" we don't have to write a whole new table with different endings so if we have svojego, it only makes sense to have niščego But after all of this discussion I think I can live with mojo, tvojo, svojo, etc. there is no point in making exceptions for those words specifically, they can just be declined regularly however we decide to do the adjective declension |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 9 2008, 03:24 PM Post #49 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Yet, I think -u would be all the way better than -oju. Take into consideration that Serbo-Croat has -om, Slovene has -o, Polish has -ą, while Czech and Slovak have -ou. These languages together are already good for half of the "votes". Besides, it avoids the whole o/e problem. Then, f.acc.sg. -uju? Either that must be a typo, or your proposal is very East Slavic-biased indeed. For the rest, I see that in the "declension" table you don't use the o/e rule after all. Is that intentional, or is this table obsolete as well? In any case, it requires a few updates: -am for the dative plural of masculine and neuter nouns, for example. Further, I see you write "mojim". I think we decided recently that the sequence ji is to be avoided. It doesn't respond well to transliteration into Cyrillic. Of course, we could simply transliterate it to и and have моим, but that complicates things even more, because how will we transliterate it back? To ji? Then we'll suddenly get knjiga as well. To ji, except after consonants? Then we'll get jih and Jisrael, not to mention putji and jednostji. In other words, everything would change again. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 9 2008, 03:38 PM Post #50 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I think I missed your edit. So...
I agree with that. But again, most of my tables are simply meant to demonstrate a few simple rules. In the verbs section, I use (IIRC) eight different verbs which tend to behave differently in the natlangs to demonstrate what they look like in Slovianski.
That's great! We can even get rid of mojo etc. by simply using -e in all cases of N.nom/acc.sg. This is what we should have done from the very beginning. Look, the ending -o occurs only in South Slavic (where it becomes -e after soft consonants). West Slavic has always -e, Ukrainian has -e as well. Russian has -oje and Belarussian -aje/-oje. In other words, if -e isn't predominant, it's at least more predominant than -o. Besides, to nove slovo doesn't look awkward at all, IMO. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 9 2008, 03:42 PM Post #51 |
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Administrator
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no, I have -u not -uju I think the spreadsheet was updating when you checked it, I forgot to set it auto-update I also have -am for dative plural, etc. pretty much everything you said I already had changed earlier it's just that the webpage didn't change because I didn't update it The declension table is older and doesn't have the o/e rule I also use the Serbian/Macedonian cyrillic so I don't have a problem with ji/jи Again, the tables are pretty old I've done them several months ago before we had discussions about ji/i |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 9 2008, 04:08 PM Post #52 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Ah, indeed. Looks fine now. ![]()
Ok. Well then, are we settled? No o/e rule for adjectives. Just -e in the neuter singular, and for the rest -ogo etc. Anyway, Ukrainian has forms like "našoho", which at least proves that the regular form in Slovianski is attested in Slavic. Yet, I still propose to have simply -u for the f.instr.sg. Like I said, it's simpler and it would be the majority solution.
Well, no. But there is also non-Serbedonian Cyrillic. We need to think of that, too. Theoretically, we could say that if we transcribe from the latter, we get "ji" after a vowel and "i" after anything else. That way, we preserve "Israel" and "ih". But we'd end up with "Ukrajina", "Kajiro", "kokajina" etc. But I'd rather not to: in Slavic, /y/ can NEVER occur after a vowel or at the beginning of a word, so there's not much point in writing "j" in these cases. BTW, I've adopted your (e|u) in the locative neuter. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 10 2008, 12:27 AM Post #53 |
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Administrator
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In my orthography ji exists only if you add i to a pre-existing j so if you have the word kraj, the derivative is krajina anyway, it's a minor topic and it doesn't matter I can use i instead of ji, but for the table I'm demonstrating the exact morphology I meant that my noun declension table is older and doesn't use o/e rule. My adjective declension saw it necessary to have o/e rule. But if we're having such problems implementing a simple rule, then sure I'd rather not have it at all. Mojo/našo etc. The reason I wanted -oju for the instrumental is because -u is already taken as an ending and other languages distinguish between them in different ways. Czech/Slovak distinguish ou from u. Polish distinguishes ę from ą. BCS has -om. Unfortunately, Slovianski only has two options left: oj and oju. Otherwise -u seems counter-intuitive to languages that have -u accusative. |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 10 2008, 12:36 PM Post #54 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Basically, that doesn't sound bad. But since put' ends in j, wouldn't that give putji? Besides, there's another problem. A transliteration program is not clever enough to know whether it was added to a pre-existing j.
Sure. I don't have the slightest problem with mojim and would even use it myself, it's just that it transliterates into Cyrillic as моим and then back as moim.
For the nom/acc.sg. -e is fully justified even without implement or pre-supposing the o/e rule. In fact, the only languages that have -o are South Slavic.
True, with one exception. Slovene has -o in both cases. For nouns, there appears to be a difference in pronunciation, but not in spelling. Polish indeed distinguishes Ä™ from Ä… in noun declension, but in adjectival declension it always uses Ä….
Is it really such a problem if two cases share one form? I mean, jednost' has -i in the genitive singular, the dative singular, the locative singular, the nominative plural, the accusative plural, and the genitive plural. Yet, I've never heard anybody complaining about that. Usually context makes it clear, and in doubtful cases there's always a workaround available. It's just that I have a problem with five different forms in the instr.sg., that's all. So how about our former -ju? Or what if we zxrakulise it a bit: -uju? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 10 2008, 05:10 PM Post #55 |
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Yeah, but I don't know if Slovene has the close o or open o in either case, they may well be different o sounds. Slovene has 7 vowels and they're not really represented in writing. It even has phonemic vowel length for some speakers so they can distinguish bil "hit" from bil "was" by vowel length. Of course you can't see that in writing since they don't use any kind of special vowel signs. That's actually a good question, I'll ask Lingvo ![]() but anyway, I think we should choose from endings available to us instead of inventing new ones like -ju (taken from another table) or -uju (taken from Russian adjectives) nove slovo, more, i t.d. ne su zrobleni iz o/e pravila sem soglosni z nimi |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 11 2008, 03:45 PM Post #56 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Glad to hear that. And, you know what? I think we are all tired of this discussion by now. So what the heck, let's have those five endings in the f.instr.sg. I'll think of something to write it down in the grammar that makes it look simple!
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 11 2008, 05:06 PM Post #57 |
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Administrator
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btw in Slovenian the stress is not on the last syllable so they're not distinguished (thx Lingvo!) |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Oct 12 2008, 12:17 PM Post #58 |
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So, as far as I understand it, we'll just have -e for neuter singular adjectives and no o/e rule whatsover? Great solution! :applause: |
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2:15 PM Jul 11