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| j/'; The use of i, j or ' after consonants | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 18 2008, 01:33 PM (4,107 Views) | |
| iopq | Sep 26 2008, 10:20 PM Post #91 |
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Re: conjugation program I dislike the fact that it spits out b' for the imperative if the verb's root ends in b and you specify a b- root when you don't specify a root it doesn't spit that form out |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Norvegski Rolf | Sep 29 2008, 06:23 PM Post #92 |
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Sorry, Gabriel! But I have to correct you. Interlingua (of IALA) was never ment to be a Pan-Romance language. It was a compilation of the so-called international vocabulary, the common linguistic heritage of the Western World, i. e. what did the major Western languages have in common. To be eligible a root/stem/word had to occur in at least three of the source languages. German and Russian were included as control languages. The result was a lexicon of about 27,000 entries, basically of Latin origin, but also some Greek. The grammar was created at a late stage of the work. The rules for its creation aimed at extreme simplicity. Unfortunately, Dr. Alexander Gode and his companions did not succeed in agreeing on a modern set of so-called "grammar words" and ended up drawing very many of them direct from Latin. The resulting auxiliary language presented in 1951 was therefore closer to Neo-Latin than to Pan-Romance. Of course, many have wanted to make it into a Pan-Romance since then, including me. Rolf |
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| iopq | Sep 30 2008, 12:03 AM Post #93 |
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Pan-Romance IAL would be pretty good. Although I like Glosa too |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 30 2008, 08:15 AM Post #94 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I'm not advocating the same degree of easiness as Interlingua has. It cóuld be done in Slovianski, but then we'd end up with infinitives instead of conjugation (as Ondrej proposed) and the absence of cases + the fact that adjectives couldn't for gender or even for number. We already have all these things, so why would anyone even consider going such way? However, that does not mean that we should start talking about all kinds of exceptions, exceptions to exceptions, all kinds of irregularities and the like. "Naturalistic" means, in the case of Slovianski-N: based on material that occurs in all or most Slavic languages. It does NOT mean that it should have an irregular verb where all or most natural languages have an irregular verb as well.
Good Lord, I hope not! One exception (mind, I'm still not convinced we really need it, but there you go) is one thing, but a whole set of them? Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 30 2008, 08:17 AM Post #95 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Really? That must be a bug, then. I'll look into it within a few days from now. Thanks for pointing it out. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 30 2008, 08:23 AM Post #96 |
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Those two statements contradict each other. I would hope we have irregularities that most other Slavic languages have. Like jedin kon', dva kon'a, pjat' koni (kon'ov) |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 30 2008, 04:38 PM Post #97 |
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Ah, OK. Didn't know it was meant as an exception. |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 3 2008, 08:10 PM Post #98 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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To put it differently, the N refers to the material the language uses, not to the language itself.
If so, then I think we are really working on two different languages. To the best of my knowledge, Slovianski was supposed to be an Inter-Slavic auxlang, based on elements that occur in most or (when possible) all Slavic languages. Easy to learn, easy to use, and understandable without prior study. It was never meant to be a hypothetical middle-of-the-road language. Like I've said before, I would personally be interested in such a language, and it could certainly serve as a good basis for Slovianski, but it would not be the same language. Jan EDIT:
I've been looking at it, but can't really figure out what you mean. Could you please give me an example? |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Oct 4 2008, 01:48 AM Post #99 |
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How are irregularities difficult to learn when they occur in your own language? Anyway, in regards to the conjugator: type in izgibat' and root izgib- it will give you imperative izgib' (izgibaj) but if you delete the root from the box, you won't get izgib' you'll just get izgibaj |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 4 2008, 07:51 AM Post #100 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Lots of people find them difficult to learn. And you don't want to pay a dime to every potential learner who'll say "no thanks" as soon as he sees more than two paradigms, because ten generations after your death your family will still be paying the debts. I don't have a problem with them myself - I even love them. But for that kind of things I have languages like Wenedyk and Vozgian. Slovianski is just not the kind of language for them, as they are in violation of the design criteria.
Ah, of course. The regular present tense root of izgibat' (whatever it means) is izgiba-. Just like delat' has only one possibility for the imperative (delaj), izgibat' will have izgibaj. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Moraczewski | Oct 5 2008, 08:57 AM Post #101 |
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I do really wnat to help solving the problems being discussed, but I must confess I was tired of reading this thread of 7 pages and stopped on the third... Could you please sum what are the questions still open and have you already accepted any decision. As I understood, -- main and the basic question is: more naturalistic language OR easy grammar with some unpleasant and ugly spelling rules. -- so there are still questions about using j/i/' after consonants in the end of the words and before e and i |
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"I nenít pochyby, že kdokoli chce a umí, může sobě stworiti jazyk krásný, bohatý, libozwučný a wšemožně dokonalý: ale jazyk takowý nebudě wíce národnim, alebrž osobním jazykem toho kdo jej sobě udělal". František Palacký. Posudek o českém jazyku spisovném, 1831. [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Oct 5 2008, 11:38 AM Post #102 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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That's one way of putting it, indeed. Although I'd say we all agree about the design principles for Slovianski as defined, namely, that it is based on material that exists in the Slavic languages, that it should be easy to learn and use, and that it can be understood by Slavs without any prior study. You are right. The question is: how far can we go to make the language more difficult for the sake of naturalism? This questions revolves around a few points: - the use of j/' and of palatalising vs. non-palatalising e; - the possible introduction of phonological rules like the o/e rule; - the consequences of any choice we make for the Cyrillic version of Slovianski.
Indeed. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno tož bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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2:15 PM Jul 11