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| j/'; The use of i, j or ' after consonants | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 18 2008, 01:33 PM (4,111 Views) | |
| iopq | Aug 27 2008, 03:15 PM Post #46 |
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Well, we can say that as a rule we should only add a j if the imperative is -i l'ubi -> l'ubl'eni vid' -> videni but you misunderstand the pj -> pl' rule pjat' doesn't have pj in it, it's etymology is пѧть what I mean by pj is proto-Slavic pj not Slovianski pj that rule is actually not very hard, zemja becomes zeml'a, big deal it's good in cases like korabl' where korabj is not an option and korab is just retarded now, the passives are another issue because we really have three passive suffixes: -t-, -n-, and -en- so objat' will have a objat passive sejat' will have a sejan passive dvignut' will have a dvižen passive (g -> ž change from the next e vowel) |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Aug 28 2008, 06:46 AM Post #47 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Slovianski has no imperative on -i. It's ljubij.
Hehe, I know, of course. I was charging. What I meant to say is that I am very much against all kinds of phonological IF ... ELSE rules. If Slovianski were meant to be an altlang instead of an auxlang, it would be a different story. It's not, and therefore Slovianski must be easy. It's bad enough we need to have four declensions and two conjugations to make it look and feel natural, but that's about it. For the rest, I can't see why p should be treated differently from t, and I can't see the additional value of plj
I'd say: korab', gen. korabja.
Regarding the latter, I've always postulated dvignuti. Any reason for the change? Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Aug 28 2008, 07:24 AM Post #48 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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One more thing regarding plj/blj/mlj/vlj... If you ask me, this is introducing a new conjugation in Slovianski. It means that we have three conjugations now: one for verbs with stems that end in a vowel, one for verbs with stems that end in a consonant, and one for verbs that end in -pit', -bit', -mit' or -vit'. What's next? The t/d stems? Obviously, it would be best to have ja vidim/vidu for "I see", and ja platim/plaču for "I pay". Right now we have vidju and platju. But the truth is: this too would mean introducing a new conjugation. Now, I wouldn't object if anybody wrote vidu or plaču in a Slovianski text. But it shouldn't be prescribed, or, for that matter, be in the grammar. All these new conjugations, exceptions, phonological rules etc. IMO would belong in Slovianski-A (A standing for "altlang" or perhaps "advanced"), but not in Slovianski-N or -P. |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Aug 28 2008, 04:42 PM Post #49 |
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b' doesn't exist as a letter, and korabj is unpronounceable (well b' is unpronounceable for anyone but Russian and Polish speakers) this is why korabl' is a better solution because it lets us indicate soft labials WITHOUT having them I've already introduced three types of conjugation in Slovianski: -e conjugation -je conjugation -i conjugation examples: neseš, zoveš znaješ, kupuješ, kol'eš lubiš, vidiš, kričiš Now, you could propose to get rid of the -je conjugation, but you would have to propose it in a way that isn't confusing obviously, kupuš doesn't doesn't like "you buy" while kupuješ does |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Aug 29 2008, 07:20 AM Post #50 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Of course b' is not a letter. But I treat ' as a separate letter (alternating with j) and I can't see why the nominative singular couldn't be korab' (gen. korabja). Pronunciation is of secondary importance, IMO. Personally, I'd pronounce it like "korab", but if a Russian would say "korablj", I wouldn't have a problem with that. And, if you really have a problem with "korab'", then we might just establish that the root is "korabl'" (gen. korablja, pl. korabli) in this particular case.
Hang on, conjugations??? Well, I wasn't aware of that. It seems that Slovianski-N has drifted away from my original grammar much more than I thought. In any case, I have to take some reservation to that. Slovianski-N is supposed to be some sort of Slavic Interlingua, not to be some sort of Slavic French. Verbal conjugations don't belong in a language like that. What IMO is so nice about Slovianski-N is that it can achieve a pretty naturalistic result without having them. Introducing conjugations now is pretty much in violation of its design criteria.That reminds me of an anecdote. Sometime in the 1950s, the Borodin Quartet gave a recital in the United States. After the concert, a rich American lady came to their room, handed them over a cheque of 10,000 $, and said: "Here, gentlemen, this is for you. To make your band a lot bigger than it is now!"
What is "kol'eš"?
As far as I am concerned, we don't need any conjugation at all. All we need is to make a difference between stems ending in a vowel and stems ending in a consonant.
Quite so. Infinitive: kupovat'. Present tense stem: kupuj-. Add -eš for the second person singular, and Bob's your uncle. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Aug 29 2008, 07:07 PM Post #51 |
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you also some roots like vopl' from vopit' that are a conversion of i class verbs into nouns let's not forget rubl' from rubit' ![]() kol'eš is from klot' to stab You say the present tense root is kupuj- Does that mean that the present tense root of neseš is nes-? In regards to your "conjugations" comment... take a look at this page http://steen.free.fr/slovianski/grammar2.html it has a conjugation table RIGHT THERE plus, instead of saying "we will have -e, -je, and -i conjugations" you just make "roots" of words include the initial -j of the conjugation How can I tell that kupuvat' has a kupuj- root and delat' has a dela- root? Couldn't I conclude that delat' has a delaj- root? Certainly to an East-Slavic speaker delaju, delaješ, etc. are more natural. So you claim to have an easy conjugation table, but no rules to determine the "present tense root" so far you've only given the rules for one-syllable verbs and -ova/-iva verbs but verbs like šumet' are of the -i type and you never give rules to cover them let's list some verbs that your table doesn't cover: belet', dubet', etc. -i type kašl'at', lajat', etc. -e type dišat', mučat', etc. -e type spat' -i type Also kradnut' has a krad- root because -n- is a suffix so all of the forms should be kradu, kradeš, etc. Maybe the forms like spat' are unpredictable But you have to take care of the -šat', -čat', -žat' verbs by either changing them to -šet' or adding a rule that they sometimes represent -e stems That's logically equivalent to having conjugation classes since you allow for irregularity anyway Anyway, korab' is a terrible spelling because no Slavic language allows bj to be the syllable coda and we should follow the phonological structure of Slavic languages Russian allows b to be soft, but certainly not a [bj] sound at the end of the word My spelling reflects pronunciation as long as you apply Slavic phonological rules like regressive voicing assimilation which you'd have to do while reading even Serbian or Czech, some of the more phonetic alphabets |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 2 2008, 01:32 PM Post #52 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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I'll probably post a reply the day after tomorrow. I've been waiting for an occasion, but during the last few days, I've been way too busy (sometimes more than 18 hours of work a day). So stay tuned... Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 3 2008, 03:34 PM Post #53 |
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Me too, we obviously can't agree on anything better.
The point is, я is not an universal equivalent of ја - ягня can't be converted to јагнја (nor to ьагньа). --- And don't please make Slovianski so difficult. Yes, it may seem difficult to have rules like "'o always changes to e" and "pj always becomes pl'". But such rules are still very easy compared to "'o doesn't become e, except for exceptions like moje, more, etc." and "pj always becomes pl', except for words like pjat', <insert other 56 words>". So I prefer to have 'o>e always and pj>pl' never - ordinary users of Slovianski should not be required to study proto-Slavic in order to apply phonological processes correctly. |
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| iopq | Sep 3 2008, 06:46 PM Post #54 |
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Well, when I say pj becomes pl' I don't mean it's a rule that Slovianski learners have to learn It's just when I publish a dictionary it will have forms like korabl' and not korab We'll still have words like objatije and so forth Maybe even ostaven What is inherently bad about choosing the more popular forms like zeml'a instead of zemja? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 4 2008, 10:59 AM Post #55 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Is zemlja *really* more popular than zemja? Or is it the kind of 50/50 or 51/49 vote? Common Slavic had zemja etc. Every Slav can understand it. Zemlja is harder to pronounce for a lot of people, non-Slavs included. You're right that people wouldn't have to learn the rule in cases like zemlja and korabl'. However, introducing the rule would also imply things like: ja ljublju without having an infinitive ljublit', isn't it? Besides, what would be the adjective derived from zemlja? Zeml'ski? My point: either you introduce a rule in toto, or you don't introduce it at all. My feeling is that the benefits of introducing this one are outnumbered by the problems it causes. And anyway, the less rules in Slovianski, the better. For the record, I can live with korabl' as an exception. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 4 2008, 11:18 AM Post #56 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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There's nothing wrong with using it. But we cannot say it is the only allowed way to write Slovianski in Cyrillics.
Indeed, a complete 1:1 transliteration is impossible with я. However, I don't see that as a big problem, because translators can easily take care of that.
My problem with the o/e rule is that it gives all kinds of undesired result. Instrumental singular on -jem? Ok, I can live with it, although I don't think we need it. Genitive plural on -jev? Undesirable. Dative plural on -jem? Never never never. In other words, we'd end up with exceptions anyway. I still prefer morje to *moro or *morjo, because that will be the form in the dictionary - it's not something anybody would have to learn, and it's not a rule a person would have to apply. As for moje/tvoje/naše: previously we had mojo/tvojo/našo. but I think in this case an exception is justified. Why not, actually? These are possessive pronouns. I don't think there's much against treating them slightly separately. Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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| iopq | Sep 5 2008, 07:31 AM Post #57 |
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Actually Russian has all of these: оленем устоев устоем I picked examples where the e is not under stress and doesn't go to jo I don't understand why they are undesirable |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| iopq | Sep 5 2008, 07:45 AM Post #58 |
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Zeml'a is more popular East Slavic + Štokavian/Slovenian and in Bulgarian the form земя is actually a simplification of зємлја although we won't count that in our voting but in terms of population you can see that something like 80% of Slavs have zeml'a I'm not saying we should go for population every time, but if the voting is pretty split, East vs. West and half of South Slavic, population is the tie breaker if we ignore this tie breaker we might as well ignore population in all cases since in this case East is definitely more populous than West and Slovenian/Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian/Montenegrin are more populous than Macedonian/Bulgarian in terms of ja l'ubl'u I'm thinking of just saying that Slovianski had regularized declension and use ja l'ubju |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Sep 5 2008, 02:17 PM Post #59 |
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If we have "ja lubju" and "lubeni", then I am OK with bj>bl' because it will only be a vocabulary issue, not a rule (including exceptions) that the user has to apply. (Or "lubjeni", but then you'd have to tell me how do I know that "lubit'" is i-conjugation. Does the i-conjugation include all -it' verbs?) |
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| IJzeren Jan | Sep 5 2008, 02:48 PM Post #60 |
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Jan van Steenbergen
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Ah, allright. I wasn't aware of that. Now that I think of it, even Polish has this rule, but like in this particular case in Bulgarian, it was often reverted later. So while we have ziemia, we also have czapla.
Yes, I tend to agree with that. pj/bj/etc. > plj/blj/etc., as long as we don't end up with "ljublju" or "zdrovlje"... One thing, though. Say, what effect will this have on derived words? For example, does this mean we end up with adjectives like zeml'ski? Jan |
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Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim. Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански [čćч] | |
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Verbal conjugations don't belong in a language like that. What IMO is so nice about Slovianski-N is that it can achieve a pretty naturalistic result without having them. Introducing conjugations now is pretty much in violation of its design criteria.

2:15 PM Jul 11