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j/'; The use of i, j or ' after consonants
Topic Started: Aug 18 2008, 01:33 PM (4,112 Views)
iopq
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n is softenable because every Slavic language has n'
p is not because it exists in Polish and Russian - 2 votes

поет means sings, поэт means poet
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
zlato/molotok? give me a break


Hehe, agreed!

Quote:
 
I think that it should not be putjov though because no language has -jov in gen. plural
you can't really count Russian it's even spelled ев


Like I said, -jov is a perfectly normal sequence in Polish. Besides, in many transcription of Russian a name like "Kovalev" comes out like "Kovaljov". I'm sure Mr. Kovalev would recognise his own name when it's written like that!

In any case, -jov is undoubtedly more understandable for a Russian than -ej or something similar for a Pole.

Besides, -ov is handy as a universal genitive plural for masculine nouns. Making all kinds of exception would make Slovianski an utter failure as an auxlang. At least, if we take the whole thing seriously.

Quote:
 
but if we keep logically extending the changes you make to the alphabet we get initial -е in Cyrillic like so:
Мне потребна еда.
Mne potrebna jeda.

йе is not a choice, it just doesn't exist outside of anomalies


Yet, it is perfectly understandable to anybody. I know it is ugly, and I know it is uncommon. If anyone can think of a good reason to get rid of it, be my guest! But all the alternatives I've seen make things only much, much worse.

Besides, there is also йо to consider.

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
n is softenable because every Slavic language has n'
p is not because it has Polish and Russian - 2 votes


So?

Apart from a few cases, like the diabel mentioned above, that point is completely moot. I don't think we should tell people how exactly to pronounce Slovianski.

Quote:
 
поет means sings, поэт means poet


I know, but what does that have to do with softening?

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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first of all, jokanje in Russian is a far newer feature
so sure, in Kovalev it turns into jo, but in Gusev it doesn't

don't you think that's kind of arbitrary to base a DECLENSION TABLE on some random Russian rule that has nothing to do with it?

It's kind of how Gabriel wanted to have mjod because of Russian and Polish forms

of course, the correct Slovianski form is med because Slovianski doesn't have jokanje or the Polish vowel change

just because some later change on the e made it jo doesn't mean we can base the declension table on it, but rather we can use the familiar -i that Poles use and have hoteli/kroli

my point about poet is that in Russian there is a difference and there is a point to having e/je distinciton
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
first of all, jokanje in Russian is a far newer feature
so sure, in Kovalev it turns into jo, but in Gusev it doesn't

don't you think that's kind of arbitrary to base a DECLENSION TABLE on some random Russian rule that has nothing to do with it?


Of course not! It's based on the fact that I don't want to have 56 different declension tables in Slovianski. When I started Slovianski-N, I simply tried to create one table for each gender. That worked for M and N, but not for F, and so there had to be a fourth table, because ena and jednost' really wouldn't fit into one declension.

For the M.gen.pl., I picked -ov because that ending is omnipresent. It doesn't matter that the languages also have other forms (-ev, -ej, -i, -u and whathaveyou), because they all have the ending -ov.

So no, I didn't pick -jov because of Russian -jv, I picked it because it was the most obvious form for this case. The jo > je change has nothing to do with declension, it is a phonological process. In my opinion, we shouldn't have too many of that kind of processes in Slovianski, because it makes it hopelessly more complicated than necessary.

NB Russian je comes in this case from Early Common Slavic jo!

Quote:
 

It's kind of how Gabriel wanted to have mjod because of Russian and Polish forms

of course, the correct Slovianski form is med because Slovianski doesn't have jokanje or the Polish vowel change


Obviously. Mjod/mid is an entirely different case. In Polish it has o because the word ends in a hard dental consonant (and the is because the d is voiced).

Quote:
 
my point about poet is that in Russian there is a difference and there is a point to having e/je distinciton


Ah, I see. Well, I agree with that. I'd rather just learn to live with йе.

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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I mean we might as well not have the o~e rule for declension and replace it all with -o. We can pull it off if we use -uv instead of -ov in words like pl'uvat'. Again, something interesting to discuss.

I think we can get away with that, but then it would be easier to use the Serbo-Slovianski Cyrillic for writing forms like дньов which would be easier on the eyes than днйов
neither is attested, but дньов seems like a better extension of the word *дьнь since there was never at any point a й in that word, and I've been using it for a while so of course I'm biased
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
I mean we might as well not have the o~e rule for declension and replace it all with -o. We can pull it off if we use -uv instead of -ov in words like pl'uvat'. Again, something interesting to discuss.


Fully agreed! Things like the o~e rule may be naturalistic, but they also make Slovianski way to complicated for a simplified language!

I'd like to make one exception, though. The neuter possessive pronouns should keep the e, because "mojo" etc. really look bad.

Quote:
 
I think we can get away with that, but then it would be easier to use the Serbo-Slovianski Cyrillic for writing forms like дньов which would be easier on the eyes than днйов neither is attested, but дньов seems like a better extension of the word *дьнь since there was never at any point a й in that word, and I've been using it for a while so of course I'm biased


Again, fully agreed. As I explained in another message, ь and й are essentially the same letter. The former used after a consonant, the latter after a vowel or word-finally. Well, maybe not precisely the same letter, but fully complementary.

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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iopq
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mojo looks fine for a Ukrainian speaker :D
I would say morje/lice/other neuter nouns should be the exception
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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iopq
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what about two words connected like so:
паровоз
in Russian there are some irregularities because it's hard to tell whether to use o or e as a connecting vowel

коневал but конокрад

we should decide whether:
1. We should use this construction
2. We want to use e or o

this is related to the o~e discussion somewhat because of words like krajeugolni
if we choose to use o it will yield results like krajougolni
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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iopq
Aug 27 2008, 02:56 AM
mojo looks fine for a Ukrainian speaker :D
I would say morje/lice/other neuter nouns should be the exception

Yes, they should be the exception. But that's not a big problem; we know already, that neuter nouns can end on -o or -(j)e and belong to one declension anyway.
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Quote:
 
what about two words connected like so:
паровоз
in Russian there are some irregularities because it's hard to tell whether to use o or e as a connecting vowel

коневал but конокрад

we should decide whether:
1. We should use this construction
2. We want to use e or o

this is related to the o~e discussion somewhat because of words like krajeugolni
if we choose to use o it will yield results like krajougolni


Good point. Well, Polish always has -o- in these cases AFAIK, so I'd say Slovianski can follow its example. Nice and simple.

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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Gabriel Svoboda

Well, at first Jan said we shouldn't have rules like under phonological condition X sound Y should become Z. So it seems you agreed on abolishing it. Great. But now you are trying to reinvent the rule by discussing exceptions. The result is even more difficult than the original rule abolished: under phonological condition A and under grammatical condition B sound C should become D.
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
btw, I like the pronunciation prigotovjena because the verb is prigotovit' which produces a j after adding the -en for the passive since it's an -it' verb


So, as far as I understand it, you want to:

1) say that the passive suffix should be -jen- instead of -en-
2) bj > bl', pj > pl', vj > vl', mj > ml'

That's not my cup of west Slavic tea, but I could live with it (providing we also keep 'o>e to have a consistent level of complexity :-) ).
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iopq
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it's not -jen-

prigotovi + -en = prigotovjen -> prigotovl'en
i sometimes gets contracted to a j in these cases

same way prosi + -en = prosjen -> prošen
but if it doesn't end in i then a verb like klot' would use the base form kol- (because the reason it's klot' is because of the open syllable rule because a thousand years ago nobody could pronounce kolti)
kol + -en = kolen
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
btw, I like the pronunciation prigotovjena because the verb is prigotovit' which produces a j after adding the -en for the passive since it's an -it' verb


So, as far as I understand it, you want to:

1) say that the passive suffix should be -jen- instead of -en-
2) bj > bl', pj > pl', vj > vl', mj > ml'[/quote]

Eh? Why on earth would anybody want to add a j in these cases? I agree that in the case of i-stems something had to be done to allow for "blienje" and "proenje" instead of "prosijenje" and "blizijenje", but if we start adding a j as a rule, we'll end up with "hvaljeni", "govorjeni", "nesjeni", "vedjeni" etc. Hardly an improvement!

As for pj > plj... Indeed, I'm not in favour of this kind of mechanisms. Besides, in cases of doubt I'd say we should go for the easiest solution, which by all standards is pj.

(Besides... "pljat'" for 5???)

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

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