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Easy orthography change
Topic Started: Jul 16 2008, 12:39 PM (570 Views)
iopq
Administrator
, j =
, j =

just shorthands for the same thing and completely optional
also a possible j = ѥ :D
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

(UTF-8)

I don't like that ю/я represents two different things.

If I wanted to change the orthography, I'd just "replace" soft consonants with soft vowels, but leave ja, je, ji, jo, ju unchanged:

Latin 'a > â, Cyrillic ьа > я (can only occur after d, t, n, r, t)
Latin 'u > û, Cyrillic ьу > ю (can only occur after d, l, n, r, t)
Latin ', Cyrillic ь (can only occur at the end of the word after d, t, n, r, t)
'e doesn't exist, replaced with e
'i doesn't exist, replaced with i
'o recently banned, replaced with e

jagnâ/јагня
N čerešnâ/черешня, G čerešni/черешни, D čerešne/черешне, A čerešnû/черешню, G pl čerešn'/черешнь

But I'd prefer to change nothing.
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iopq
Administrator
Yeah, I know, I'm just thinking of different cyrillic alphabets as alternatives, not as permanent changes

Here is another funny alphabet:

Я іесем украінец, ти си чех.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
Member Avatar

[UTF-8]
I'd like something between Ukrainian, Belarusian and OCS cyrillic...

я ѥсем поляк, ті ѥсі чех, он говорі їт на іті. В Еўропе жіют словянске народі.
Ja jesem Pol'ak, ti jesi czeh, on govori jit na iti. V Europe z'ijut slovjanske narodi.

I know we say "Evropa", not "Europa", but that for example, where we have to use non-Slavic word with [w]. It could be used for "Washington" as Ўашінгтон (but, in Latin script we would have to write "Uaszington"), ўікенд.

Then ѥ always means je (and probably is always on the begining of word and never middle other letters or at the end), я means 'a after d, t, n, r, l, t and ja in other cases (we could write tja by тја) - and similar with other j+vowel.

I don't like letter и and й. ;)
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iopq
Administrator
Well, you have to remember that before 1917 Russian used the letter і in some cases and и in others.

І was used before й and before vowels: исторія, русскій, Іерусалимъ
It was also read as [j] in between vowels or in the beginning of a word: іодъ, маіоръ

In my orthography I also added the [ji] pronunciation
ukrajinec <-> украінец

Also I don't distinguish between ie and je in the beginning of a word

Я іесем украінец, ти іеси поляк. Ти не могл запамятувать же имаме слова как мнениіе в кторих нам потребно писать іе.

I'm not writing the ligature because of the fact that I can type everything I've said above using a Ukrainian layout without any modifications.

чай - tea
чаі - several types of tea
діавол - devil
дятел - woodpecker
іод - iodine
словянин - slav

I disagree with the letter ў because the pronunciation of v in Slovianski is already [ў]
the reason for this is I don't want [f] to be said in unvoiced positions
avto sounds OK to all Slavic speakers when pronounced [аўто] but only Russians will find [афто] acceptable

I'm pretty sure this is the pronunciation in Slovak, Slovenian, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian.

Also, v doesn't cause regressive voicing assimilation:
svetlo [sʋɛtlo]
sdelat' [zdɛlatʲ]

so it should be pronounced as a sonorant
well, actually it should be pronounced as [ʋ] before vowels and as [u̯] before consonants or something like that

of course in each language the pronunciation of this letter is slightly different, but I'm just trying to keep the old Slavic pronunciation because the Slavic languages reflect that pronunciation even though the actual letter might already be pronunced [v]

Question: which languages pronounce tvoj as [tfoj]? I know Bulgarian and Czech do, but I really would like the Slovianski pronunciation to be [tʋoj]
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
which languages pronounce tvoj as [tfoj]? I know Bulgarian and Czech do


Czech doesn't. As far as I remember, Czech has the following rules for voicing assimilation:

- final devoicing
- regressive voicing assimilation
- exception: [v] doesn't cause regressive voicing assimilation
- exception consonants that don't have their (un)voiced counterpart don't cause regressive voicing assimilation (jsme [sme], not [zme])
- exception: the Bohemian pronunciation [sx] is allowed for initial "sh-" besides the Moravian and regular [zh]

None of these rules justifies "tvoj" to be pronounced [tfoj].
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IJzeren Jan
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Jan van Steenbergen
Quote:
 
Question: which languages pronounce tvoj as [tfoj]? I know Bulgarian and Czech do, but I really would like the Slovianski pronunciation to be [tʋoj]


Polish, most definitely!

twój [tfuj]
swój [sfuj]

Likewise:
przed [pšet]

Jan
Človeku, ktoromu je trudno s soboju samim, verojetno to bude trudno s vsim inim.

Slovianski - Словянски - Словјански
[čćч]
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iopq
Administrator
I meant to say Polish, not Czech

but yeah, the fact that it doesn't cause regressive assimilation in many languages is why it probably had the [w] pronunciation in Proto-Slavic
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
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Hmm, AFAIK Proto-Slavic had [β]. But I got informations about PS mostly from Wikipedias (English, Polish and Czech), and some other places on the Internet. But as far as I know "volъ" was pronounced like [βolu] with very short , maybe [ɨ].

And AFAIK Czech has Evropa [EvrOpa]... And, also I'm not sure, most of Slavic language has [v] for "v"/"w"/"в". Belarusian makes distinction between [v] (в), [ɫ] or [l] (л) and [w] (ў). Polish makes with [w] ("ł" or "u") and [v] ("w"). Czech AFAIK does not use [w] in "official" language, so everywhere there is [v] (or [f]).

Am I right, or not?
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iopq
Administrator
Quote:
 
Hmm, AFAIK Proto-Slavic had [β].


Doesn't really matter, we're talking about sonorant vs. fricative. The difference between [ʋ] and [β] is so small that a lot of books describe the Ukrainian sound as [β]. It's kind of hard to distinguish between them.
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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