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| o -> e change in declension/conjugation | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 28 2008, 03:08 PM (828 Views) | |
| iopq | May 28 2008, 03:08 PM Post #1 |
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Should we have this very common change? After "soft" consonants like c, ž, š, č the "o" in declension and declination becomes "e" and is usually mentioned by grammars I assumed we would have it examples: jezero but kol'ce, jajce, serdce jazikom but mečem gor'kogo but svežego |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | May 28 2008, 03:22 PM Post #2 |
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I agree. |
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| iopq | May 28 2008, 06:36 PM Post #3 |
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Now the second question: pol'skego or pol'skogo? Even if we have this rule, we don't have to use the -ogo ending, we can use the -ego ending for all like West Slavic does |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | May 29 2008, 10:03 AM Post #4 |
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-ogo (unless -ego is produced by the 'o > e rule) as in west Slavic and Serbo-Croatian - 2,5 votes (don't know what Slovenian has), which is a half of the votes (Bulgarian/Macedonian are not counted) and a majority of the population |
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| iopq | May 29 2008, 08:02 PM Post #5 |
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Doesn't Polish have polskiego? |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Silmethule | May 29 2008, 08:06 PM Post #6 |
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Polish has "polskiego", but also "jezioro" etc. (first: we had "lechitic umlaut" or "Polish umlaut", second: we have everywhere -(')ego ending). |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | May 29 2008, 08:32 PM Post #7 |
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oops, I wanted to write "east Slavic and Serbo-Croatian" |
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| iopq | Jun 16 2008, 03:38 PM Post #8 |
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Well, in that case we should have černi, želti instead of čorni, žolti for consistency with the o -> e rule |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 16 2008, 05:45 PM Post #9 |
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In the first post of this topic, you wrote:
I think this is what we should be guided by, because all languages have the changes like mojo > moje or naszo > nasze, but none has z'olti > z'elti. Czerni, according to voting and Jan's vocabulary patterns, is all right. |
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| iopq | Jun 17 2008, 09:29 AM Post #10 |
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Well, we have verbs like želtet' (to become yellow) in Russian and Ukrainian turns e into o after ž, so it even has žona |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 21 2008, 06:56 PM Post #11 |
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Hm, interesting ... So do we say that any combination czo, szo, z'o, jo is just not allowed and replaced with cze, sze, z'e, je? (With the exception of foreign words like szok, szofer, or Dz'ordz'ija.) But what to do with the word for "what"? Should it also be "cze"? rozmeszczovat' > rozmeszczevat'? skroczovat' > skroczevat'? uproszczovat' > uproszczevat'? ogloszovat' > ogloszevat'? opustoszovat' > opustoszevat'? zmenszovat' > zmenszevat'? osudz'ovat' > osudz'evat'? obmedz'ovat' > obmedz'evat'? prodolz'ovat' > prodolz'evat'? zaderz'ovat' > zaderz'evat'? zamroz'ovat' > zamroz'evat'? povaz'ovat' > povaz'evat'? podderz'ovat' > podderz'evat'? predupredz'ovat' > predupredz'evat'? |
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| iopq | Jun 22 2008, 01:51 AM Post #12 |
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Well, Russian has i here everywhere like podderz'ivat' Ukrainian has u: zmen'šuvaty, zproščuvaty But the simplest solution here is to say: rozmeščat' skročat' uproščat' oglošat' etc. because the additional suffix doesn't change the meaning |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 22 2008, 01:07 PM Post #13 |
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Ogloszat' doesn't sound perfective, but still it doesn't sound imperfective enough. The -av-/-ev-/-iv-/-ov-/-uv- suffix would help the understanding. |
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| iopq | Jun 22 2008, 05:33 PM Post #14 |
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Actually, after having written up a long post and having my browser crash, I think we should change to a -uvat' system because it's simpler There is no way in Russian to even write pricel'ovat, since the accent in Russian is on the и in прицеливать so you can't use the letter ё since it implies an accent. Therefore pricel'ovat' is very strange to a Russian speaker, while pricel'uvat' is completely normal in Ukrainian which has прицілювати. Another plus is that the present tense forms become more regular: pricel'uvat': pricel'uju pricel'uješ etc. while in Russian it goes like this: прицеливать: прицеливаю прицеливаешь etc. but беседовать: беседую беседуешь etc. obviously this is more complicated |
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Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general. Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr" | |
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| Gabriel Svoboda | Jun 22 2008, 07:26 PM Post #15 |
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OK, let's have -uv-. |
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2:15 PM Jul 11