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o -> e change in declension/conjugation
Topic Started: May 28 2008, 03:08 PM (830 Views)
iopq
Administrator
Should we have this very common change?

After "soft" consonants like c, ž, š, č the "o" in declension and declination becomes "e" and is usually mentioned by grammars

I assumed we would have it

examples:
jezero but kol'ce, jajce, serdce
jazikom but mečem
gor'kogo but svežego
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

I agree.
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iopq
Administrator
Now the second question:

pol'skego or pol'skogo?

Even if we have this rule, we don't have to use the -ogo ending, we can use the -ego ending for all like West Slavic does
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

-ogo (unless -ego is produced by the 'o > e rule)

as in west Slavic and Serbo-Croatian - 2,5 votes (don't know what Slovenian has), which is a half of the votes (Bulgarian/Macedonian are not counted) and a majority of the population
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iopq
Administrator
Doesn't Polish have polskiego?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Silmethule
Member Avatar

Polish has "polskiego", but also "jezioro" etc. (first: we had "lechitic umlaut" or "Polish umlaut", second: we have everywhere -(')ego ending).
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Gabriel Svoboda

Quote:
 
as in west Slavic and Serbo-Croatian


oops, I wanted to write "east Slavic and Serbo-Croatian"
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iopq
Administrator
Well, in that case we should have černi, želti instead of čorni, žolti for consistency with the o -> e rule
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

In the first post of this topic, you wrote:

Quote:
 
After "soft" consonants like c, ž, š, č the "o" in declension and declination becomes "e"


I think this is what we should be guided by, because all languages have the changes like mojo > moje or naszo > nasze, but none has z'olti > z'elti.

Czerni, according to voting and Jan's vocabulary patterns, is all right.
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iopq
Administrator
Well, we have verbs like želtet' (to become yellow) in Russian
and Ukrainian turns e into o after ž, so it even has žona
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Hm, interesting ... So do we say that any combination czo, szo, z'o, jo is just not allowed and replaced with cze, sze, z'e, je? (With the exception of foreign words like szok, szofer, or Dz'ordz'ija.)

But what to do with the word for "what"? Should it also be "cze"?

rozmeszczovat' > rozmeszczevat'?
skroczovat' > skroczevat'?
uproszczovat' > uproszczevat'?
ogloszovat' > ogloszevat'?
opustoszovat' > opustoszevat'?
zmenszovat' > zmenszevat'?
osudz'ovat' > osudz'evat'?
obmedz'ovat' > obmedz'evat'?
prodolz'ovat' > prodolz'evat'?
zaderz'ovat' > zaderz'evat'?
zamroz'ovat' > zamroz'evat'?
povaz'ovat' > povaz'evat'?
podderz'ovat' > podderz'evat'?
predupredz'ovat' > predupredz'evat'?
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iopq
Administrator
Well, Russian has i here everywhere like podderz'ivat'
Ukrainian has u: zmen'šuvaty, zproščuvaty


But the simplest solution here is to say:
rozmeščat'
skročat'
uproščat'
oglošat'
etc.

because the additional suffix doesn't change the meaning
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

Ogloszat' doesn't sound perfective, but still it doesn't sound imperfective enough. The -av-/-ev-/-iv-/-ov-/-uv- suffix would help the understanding.
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iopq
Administrator
Actually, after having written up a long post and having my browser crash, I think we should change to a -uvat' system because it's simpler

There is no way in Russian to even write pricel'ovat, since the accent in Russian is on the и in прицеливать so you can't use the letter ё since it implies an accent. Therefore pricel'ovat' is very strange to a Russian speaker, while pricel'uvat' is completely normal in Ukrainian which has прицілювати.

Another plus is that the present tense forms become more regular:
pricel'uvat':
pricel'uju
pricel'uješ
etc.
while in Russian it goes like this:
прицеливать:
прицеливаю
прицеливаешь
etc.

but
беседовать:
беседую
беседуешь
etc.

obviously this is more complicated
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

OK, let's have -uv-.
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