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Kniga or kn'iga?
Topic Started: Jan 12 2007, 05:47 PM (784 Views)
iopq
Administrator
Here is a word that justifies palatalization before an i:
Russian: kn'iga
Ukrainian: kniga
Polish: ks'enga
Czech: kn'iga
Slovak: kn'iga
Slovenian: knjiga
Serbocroatian: kn'iga
Bulgarian: kniga
Macedonian: kniga

6 palatalized (if you count Slovenian) and 3 not palatalized

if you don't count Slovenian, 5 palatalized, and 3 not palatalized, 1 with a jod
in any case, kn'iga seems to win
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Gabriel Svoboda

(UTF-8)

So Ukrainians, Poles, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Slovenians (3,5 votes) are not accustomed to the exact pronunciation you would require. Even if you wanted to have the 'i/i distinction, it would be better to spell it i/y and и/ы ... or does any langauge write combinations like ňi or ньи?
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iopq
Administrator
Ukrainian are accustomed to the i/y distinction but they don't have it in the same places other languages do
"i" sometimes falls on the same place as in Czech and Slovak, but that's it
the rest of the time it's y

in terms of palatalization, I've only seen 'i/ji used in Serbian/Slovenian this way (as well as Rusyn but we're not considering that)

question to you, though
is ny ever pronounced ni but NOT n'i in Slovak or Czech?
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Guest
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Ukrainian are accustomed to the i/y distinction but they don't have it in the same places other languages do

Yes, this is what I mean.

is ny ever pronounced ni but NOT n'i in Slovak or Czech?

In Czech and Slovak, <b>ny</b> is always pronounced [ni] and <b>ni</b> is always pronounced [n'i] (except for foreign words and for some exceptions at the end of Slovak plural masculine adjectives).
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Gabriel Svoboda

The last post was by me ... this forum didn't stop me when I tried to post as an unregistered user. :-)
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iopq
Administrator
ah the adjective exception is what I was thinking of because I saw someone say it on wikipedia

we should count how many languages have the ni/n'i distinction

yes: Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Serbocroatian, Belarusian
no: Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Slovenian

I put Ukrainian as no because it usually prefers ni and Slovenian has nji instead of n'i

Spellings of n'i:
ни, ni, ni, ni, nji/њи, ні
Spellings of ni:
ны, ny, ny, ny, ni/ни, ны

I would not discuss this, except for the fact that it is difficult for a Russian speaker to avoid pronouncing certain words with ы
As a Ukrainian speaker I find it perfectly fine to pronounce everything with Ukrainian и which is close to the pronunciation of ы in Russian
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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Pioneer
Unregistered

:D Óêðàèíñêî-ðóññêèé àíåêäîò:
"Ìûêîëà, òû ÷óâ ÿê ìîñêàëè íàøå ïÛâî êàæóòü?
ßê??
ïÈâî (ïiâî)!!!
Ïîóáèâàâ áû!"

Ïèøåòñÿ îäèíàêîâî - ÏÈÂÎ
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Pioneer
Unregistered

Îäèíàêîâî, ÷òî â ðóññêîì ÷òî â óêðàèíñêîì - ÊÍÈÃÀ.
Íè ðàçó çà 2 ãîäà â Êèåâå íå ñëûøàë ÊÍÛÃÀ, õîòÿ êíûæêà -ñëûøàë
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Silmethule
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Quote:
 
yes: Russian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Serbocroatian, Belarusian


Wrong. Polish has [Ji]/[n1] (written ni and ny) distinction.

"Y" is everywhere pronounced [1] and it never palatises(is this correct English word? sorry, my English isn't perfect, yet :P) other sounds. Every Pole writen "ni" reads like [Ji], never [ni].

And, Pole can understand word kniga (pronounced /kJiga/, kn'iga, with palatalisation), it's rarely-used "correct" Polish word. Just like kniaź [kJaz\] (prince), more "modern" Polish word is książę [ks\ow~ZE].
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Rostislav
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About "kniga" and "kn'iga" I think, if some people would wright and pronounce "kniga", and another - "kn'iga", they well understand each other. Slovianski has many another problems.
Pravda jedina jest'
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iopq
Administrator
We ARE talking about the i/y distinction. 'y' doesn't palatalize, while 'i' palatalizes. In Croatian, there is no y, but there's a distinction between Cji and Ci (where C = consonant)

I've decided that for now Slovianski won't have C'e and C'i combinations
Bo v c'omu žytti pomiž baletom i svobodoju zavždy potribno vybyraty svobodu, navit' jakščo ce čehoslovac'kyj general.
Sergij Žadan "Anarchy in the Ukr"
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