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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 12 2007, 10:44 PM (900 Views) | |
| Shawn | Oct 14 2007, 09:12 PM Post #16 |
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Dazed and confused.
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Because we've gone to war in the past doesn't mean it's okay now. God hasn't told us to go to war this time, and simply because it was okay then doesn't mean it's fine to war right now. I think of war as an absolute last resort, and right now, I feel it's not necessary. |
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| Jason McNelson | Oct 15 2007, 08:21 AM Post #17 |
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The 'Desert Fox'
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People were being tortured in Iraq. Planes had been driven into buildings. If this does not require "last resort," what does? |
I am Jason. ROAR![]() I'd better not get any more awards or I'll move into a higher tax bracket. **** "Grant Me: -One Opportunity to influence the course of history. -The foresight to anticipate that opportunity. -The conviction to plan for it. -The fortitude to implement the plan. -The intensity of action to make it work. -The flexibility to change it when it won't. -The loyalty to self to admit defeat. -The humility owed to victory. -The tenacity to continue." -General Tommy Franks | |
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| Shawn | Oct 15 2007, 10:32 AM Post #18 |
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Dazed and confused.
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A last resort means we try other tactics first, if other methods aren't working, we use war last. |
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| Ninva | Oct 15 2007, 09:38 PM Post #19 |
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Ignorant. ಠ_ಠ
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The problem is we're using all methods, and not all methods work, like war and politics. |
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| Jason McNelson | Oct 16 2007, 04:50 PM Post #20 |
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The 'Desert Fox'
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First of all, the US gave Saddam timetables to capitulate. He ignored them. The UN made dozens of resolutions. He ignored them. The US definitely ran through every possibility before war. Any sane person would. I wish you would have done some research to back up your statement that we didn't try other tactics first. Usually, before I believe something or form an opinion, I do thorough research. Apparently you've decide to accept that the US is victimizing those in the Middle East, that we didn't try everything else before war, that we're bullies, that we are losing, etc. I don't know who taught you to believe this, whether it was your parents, friends, teachers, the news media, or a combination of those. Either way, you apparently don't want to look at reality so I really have no interest in carrying on this conversation. In addition, I feel it is impossible to have an educated discussion with some one who can freely state (referring to Dan's previous post) that they don't care if thousands of people die. Anyone who has any shred of a conscience feels some sort of compassion when people have to suffer. |
I am Jason. ROAR![]() I'd better not get any more awards or I'll move into a higher tax bracket. **** "Grant Me: -One Opportunity to influence the course of history. -The foresight to anticipate that opportunity. -The conviction to plan for it. -The fortitude to implement the plan. -The intensity of action to make it work. -The flexibility to change it when it won't. -The loyalty to self to admit defeat. -The humility owed to victory. -The tenacity to continue." -General Tommy Franks | |
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| Ninva | Oct 16 2007, 05:26 PM Post #21 |
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Ignorant. ಠ_ಠ
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You took my statement in the wrong view. The reason we're not getting anywhere with this war is because the politics still want to meddle with the affairs of countries. If I had a choice, I would just let the generals go to work, and show that Iraqis that war is not just scary, but hellish. We're America, not the adult in the room that you can throw paper at when she has her back turned. But whatever, what I do I know? I'm not a conservative; I read NEWSWEEK. *groan* |
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| Jason McNelson | Oct 17 2007, 09:16 AM Post #22 |
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The 'Desert Fox'
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Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I couldn't agree more. Leave fighting to the military and leave politics to politicians. Also, my previous post was mainly in response to Shawn's comments. Not as much your's. |
I am Jason. ROAR![]() I'd better not get any more awards or I'll move into a higher tax bracket. **** "Grant Me: -One Opportunity to influence the course of history. -The foresight to anticipate that opportunity. -The conviction to plan for it. -The fortitude to implement the plan. -The intensity of action to make it work. -The flexibility to change it when it won't. -The loyalty to self to admit defeat. -The humility owed to victory. -The tenacity to continue." -General Tommy Franks | |
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| Shawn | Oct 17 2007, 10:16 AM Post #23 |
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Dazed and confused.
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I didn't mean that we hadn't done anything, but I also don't think it was time for war. What does the killing of citizens in a war have to do with problems we had with Saddam? Maybe I'm just being ignorant, but I don't see how killing other people had anything to do with our problems with Saddam. |
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| DuckyHug | Oct 18 2007, 07:54 PM Post #24 |
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Arrhael in disguise.
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It's a very long story Shawn. But basically, Saddam was killing people. He was torturing and murdering innocent people. He was funding Osama Bin Ladin. (Don't assume that spelling is correct.) We went into Iraq to stop Saddam and to free the oppressed people. I think it is absolutely terrible that Senators and Congressmen have said such terrible things about our troops. Our troops take/are taking so many precautions to not to harm civilians. They are putting their lives at risk in place of civilians. They are giving medical attention and aide to the people. It is so terrible that people can spread such terrible lies about those who are giving their all to protect us and the Iraqies. |
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| Ninva | Oct 18 2007, 09:08 PM Post #25 |
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Ignorant. ಠ_ಠ
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Ruth, I have to beg to differ. I've seen videos of real soldiers killing real people that beg for mercy a few yards down. I'm not so sure about the whole story, but it's kinda discouraging to see such images bugging sent around the Internet. I'm not saying that all of our soldiers are evil, but it's sure not a lie that some of them are. But it does become a lie when these congress/senators take only a few cases and distort them. |
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| Jason McNelson | Oct 19 2007, 11:17 AM Post #26 |
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The 'Desert Fox'
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Show me one video. You do not have the right to say that about our troops. Frist of all, you have no idea what you are talking about. You have done no research. And unless I'm mistaken, you don't have any military knowledge/experiences. More importantly, how can you say such a thing about the people who give up their lives and their futures just so you and I can be free and enjoy our life. Ninva, that really hurts me that you could say that. There is no group of people in the nation who are more outstanding citizens than our troops. Also, no one can just "walk" into the army. To make it through army training, you must be an incredibly focused individual, have good character, and be courageous. The 'losers' don't make it into the army. The 'losers' are the ones protesting and holding the "DOWN WITH OUR TROOPS" signs. |
I am Jason. ROAR![]() I'd better not get any more awards or I'll move into a higher tax bracket. **** "Grant Me: -One Opportunity to influence the course of history. -The foresight to anticipate that opportunity. -The conviction to plan for it. -The fortitude to implement the plan. -The intensity of action to make it work. -The flexibility to change it when it won't. -The loyalty to self to admit defeat. -The humility owed to victory. -The tenacity to continue." -General Tommy Franks | |
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| Ninva | Oct 19 2007, 04:18 PM Post #27 |
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Ignorant. ಠ_ಠ
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I didn't hold on to the links. But always, do you know what you're talking about? You haven't even proved any of the information your saying yourself. Seeing young men dying (including American and British soldiers) is enough for me to believe that some of these lies aren't just made up. I'm rather fed up with your elitist behavior without given us proof that you have plenty of actual facts before putting us down. Also, this is war. We won't have the actual poof until the war has ended for a few decades. There's always the lies that someone tells, and no one knows who is right or wrong. Just because your conservative radio station tells you that all the other media stations are wrong about the war and why, doesn't mean the other media stations aren't doing the same exact thing. No actually, that's bull Jacob. I can't believe you dared to say such load of crap. You have no clue what I study in and outside class. Topic locked, you can defend yourself, Jacob... just lock it when you're done. ((To point out a emotional fact, in Band of Brothers, they kill off wounded enemy soldiers across the bank. In the civil war, it was the same. Other accounts have been so as well, but they were all in conditions where the soldiers could not do anything. The video I saw of Marines taking fire onto a injured man was quoted to be just for fun. I'd like to note that the shooter was uneasy about the killing, but rooted on by his fellow comrades he did it. I found it sad, but it's war... I've also seen videos of civilians throwing bombs at Humvees, and Marines accidentally shooting Iraqi soldiers, which could be on mistake due to lack of good training. Iraqis are trained with gun fire being shot next to them, according to another video I saw a while ago... um, there was also a shooting of a civilian who raised his hands up before being shot lamely. These "lies" are not lies.)) But to be blunt, Jacob. The reason I can say such things are because they're true. Our soldiers are not great individuals. Our soldiers are not the best. Our soldiers are kids who are trained to kill and follow through orders. They make mistakes, and some who have personalities like the rest of the world will do bad things like we do. This idea is proved again and again in literature, history, and movies/books produced by veterans |
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| DuckyHug | Oct 19 2007, 05:48 PM Post #28 |
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Arrhael in disguise.
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Ninva, it makes me really sad to hear you say this. These men are giving their lives to serve us. First, I want to say that in World War II, there were American soldiers who mistreated prisoners. There will always be people who do bad things, but do the actions of a handful of people make our entire army evil? Here's a few clips of our troops helping the Iraqis: One. Two. Three. Here's an interesting one.(This is not for young members of PA for a few scenes are graphic, and watch out for other clips assotiated with this, I do not know how "friendly" the material is.) Notice in this one how the title is calling our troops idiots, but the video shows our soldiers helping even the enemy. Remember that in this war the enemy doesn't always come in uniform. There are what are called insergents. People who attack soldiers/create disruption/make IEDs/etc. Also, notice that the title of the video is "US Army are Idiots! WAR CRIMES IN IRAQ (shooting the bus)." Notice the incorrect grammar in the title. To me, this means that the person who posted this is not the most reliable. For more examples, watch the millitary channel. The program, I think it's called "My War Diary", is especially good. Also, have you seen Path to 9/11. If not, I recommend it. I isn't about our troops in Iraq, but it shows the enemy we are up against. Anyways, I would post more, but it takes a lot of time to watch the videos, and even if a video is a good example of what I'm talking about, it might not be entirely appropriate for the site so it's hard. I know that there are so many more out there, but some I found had somethings in them that we're very "friendly" for this site. |
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| Jason McNelson | Oct 19 2007, 05:54 PM Post #29 |
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The 'Desert Fox'
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Alright, fine, if I must.... First of all, I would like to comment on my previous post, specifically "You have no idea what your are talking about." I was in error to make such a statement. I have no idea of any of the background research you have done, so I shouldn't assume anything. Next:
Now I know everyone makes mistakes, all humans do. However, our soldiers ARE THE BEST. Here is a nice link http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/200...08-05-voa15.cfm The army has created a virtual Baghdad. After basic training and boot camp, soldiers live in this world for a few weeks. It includes live fire exercises, IED searches, hostage situations, and much more. I've see a few specials on this plus some reading. It's pretty amazing and you really can't consider soldiers "under trained" after they go through this. Now no training can replace combat experiences, but this gets as close as ever. These men are not like those in WWII who were handed rifles and taught the basics of marching and shooting and then shipping off to battle. For these people, fighting is a career. Perhaps they do not plan to remain in the army always, but it IS a profession like being a Doctor or Lawyer. ***
Not that I don't take your word as reliable, but I really don't see this claim about our soldiers shooting people in cold blood as justifiable since I have not seen these videos and I have heard nothing about them from any media, including the liberal minded ones...
You accused troops of doing something which is wrong. So far you have provide zero evidence other than word of mouth. Unless I'm mistaken, one is still innocent till proven guilty in this country, right? I don't need evidence to back up our soldier integrity. You do if you want to ....convict them (for lack of better word) of committing this attrocities.
I've seen men dying on the news too. It saddens me. However, it doesn't back-up the statement that our troops are murdering people in the middle east. No one denies that our troops are very often giving their lives. Either way, I don't see this as relavent.
Ok, well, I am a bit of an elitist sometimes, and I apologize. However, I don't think I gave that many facts other than "we are winning" and "our troops are good people." However, the latter one of these I believe I already discussed. In this country your good character is assumed unless proved otherwise.(Innocent till proven...etc)For the former, let's look at some facts. We are killing/capturing many more terrorists than the number of soldiers from the US which are dying. Also, except for a few locations where there is violence, the majority of Iraq is at peace. Yes, it's true. You never hear it on the news but if you look at where the deaths occur, they are only in a few providences. The rest is relatively at peace. (Note, I couldn't find a good military report on such short notice. I will check some of my books see if I can find something later) Oh, and most importantly, the people like us there. The elections have been going really well. The turn out has been huge! Also, the Generals say things have been approving. Many people don't believe them. Why not? If generals aren't experts on war, who are? Politicians? I hope not....
source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5121500228.html I agree. History will judge the actions of our president and our men in uniform. And I believe you already know how I feel that will be judged. But we shall see won't we?
This could get really touchy.....but lets just say this, first of all, what I read, view, and listen to does not tell me that other people are wrong. The information I access is simply "information." It is reported to be EXTREMELY accurate. I'm sure you can dig up many arguments against it.....I'm not interested in going there. I could dig up lots of dirt for the rest of the media and support for the conservate media but like I said, I just want to focus on the topic of our troops and the war. True, I don't know what you study, I believe I touched on this previously. I shouldn't have assumed that you haven't viewed sources. However, as of yet you haven't shown me any facts what so ever. You've only made baseless accusations. Not to sound like a broken record, but again, to say that our troops are under trained, murders, etc. is libel. You have not backed that up with anything yet.
Uh, no comment here. I'm just talking on the current war. I don't want to get into a discussion covering all wars.
First of all, let me get one thing straight. I don't think you are lying. I know you wouldn't. However, I do not believe that these movies are real/accurate. I have heard nothing of then on any news network let alone even seen them. I still offer you the challenge to find some of these on a reliable media site and post em. (No Moveon.org or youtube please )I find it hard to believe such a shocking video (one of our troops murdering people) would not show up in atleast one TV news program.
I have no interest in defending myself. Just my country and the men who serve it. In addition, this is a very interesting comment you have made. I'll elaborate. You have basically accused our troops. My point is I do not need to defend them with anything more than the statement, "innocent till proven guilty." Not trying to repeat myself but this is my whole point. You cannot accuse those men and women until you have some proof. You haven't offered any. So I guess this topic end here until you do. |
I am Jason. ROAR![]() I'd better not get any more awards or I'll move into a higher tax bracket. **** "Grant Me: -One Opportunity to influence the course of history. -The foresight to anticipate that opportunity. -The conviction to plan for it. -The fortitude to implement the plan. -The intensity of action to make it work. -The flexibility to change it when it won't. -The loyalty to self to admit defeat. -The humility owed to victory. -The tenacity to continue." -General Tommy Franks | |
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| octmuk | Oct 19 2007, 06:26 PM Post #30 |
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I do not support the troops at all, it is their fault they are going out there getting into these dangerous situations, all for "the cause." "Oh no, troops are dying!" Again...it is their fault. And just a few small fun clarification things...um, technically it is still murder...homocide...a human being killing another human being. Also, your conservative news, I hope you know, doesnt mean right away it is correct. It depends on it's uses and opinion, so it isnt accurate to say your news is better than liberal-minded news. Conservative news...bleh, but, it doesnt matter, I dont watch the news anyway. You and Ninva are ranting on and on...and frankly, I agree more with Ninva on some of these things...anyways, just small things to point out. |
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I am a bit of an elitist sometimes, and I apologize. However, I don't think I gave that many facts other than "we are winning" and "our troops are good people." However, the latter one of these I believe I already discussed. In this country your good character is assumed unless proved otherwise.(Innocent till proven...etc)
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3:25 AM Jul 11