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The georgian war of survival.
Topic Started: Aug 11 2008, 06:56 PM (328 Views)
Kartoffel Kanzler
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Paul Emil Rocks
if they take ukraine(my family owns an apartment there) then i will start protesting if bush doesn't show back bone!
heh
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Pez201
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Artheres,Aug 14 2008
11:08 AM
Kartoffel, I agree with you. The Russians are becoming a dangerous threat. Mark my words, Russia is going to do somthing really nasty in the coming years.

I shall mark them. :)
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Fin
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KK "if they take ukraine(my family owns an apartment there) then i will start protesting if bush doesn't show back bone! "

Wait how, all of the US military are in Iraq and Afghanistan? It shouldnt be the US we got no one left, Europe has to stand up to Russia

Art "Kartoffel, I agree with you. The Russians are becoming a dangerous threat. Mark my words, Russia is going to do somthing really nasty in the coming years. "

So there gonna throw a bad ass party for us?
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Kartoffel Kanzler
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Paul Emil Rocks
i love ukraine i know people from there and i know their culture, if russia invades them then i'd feel as if they invaded america. Europe needs backbone too, but in georgia the usa should focus there and let europe deal with ukraine and russia.
heh
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Kyleslavia
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Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 14 2008
03:14 AM
i love ukraine i know people from there and i know their culture, if russia invades them then i'd feel as if they invaded america. Europe needs backbone too, but in georgia the usa should focus there and let europe deal with ukraine and russia.

Russia isn't as powerful as you may think. Its military suffers from very low morale and is equipped with ancient equipment. Remember Russia's war in Chechnya? Well, it showed how weak the Russian army could be.

Another thing, Russia isn't fluxing its muscles for just any reason. It feels threatened because of constant NATO expansion as well as missiles being places in eastern Europe etc. Russia's invasion of Georgia (a nation that wants to join NATO) may have been its way of saying " Hey, we're not going to stand by while we are completely surrounded by a western military alliance."
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Niongor
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Kyleslavia,Aug 14 2008
02:43 PM
Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 14 2008
03:14 AM
i love ukraine i know people from there and i know their culture, if russia invades them then i'd feel as if they invaded america.  Europe needs backbone too, but in georgia the usa should focus there and let europe deal with ukraine and russia.

Russia isn't as powerful as you may think. Its military suffers from very low morale and is equipped with ancient equipment. Remember Russia's war in Chechnya? Well, it showed how weak the Russian army could be.

Another thing, Russia isn't fluxing its muscles for just any reason. It feels threatened because of constant NATO expansion as well as missiles being places in eastern Europe etc. Russia's invasion of Georgia (a nation that wants to join NATO) may have been its way of saying " Hey, we're not going to stand by while we are completely surrounded by a western military alliance."

That's very true about Russia feeling threatened, but here's my issue with NATO expansion.

North Atlantic Treaty Organisation

Remind me: where exactly does Eastern Europe touch the North Atlantic? It's absolutely ridiculous. It's the US trying to box Russia in, Turkey, Georgia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria - all should not be in NATO.
"There is no next time: it's now or never!"

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Kartoffel Kanzler
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Niongor,Aug 14 2008
02:22 PM
Kyleslavia,Aug 14 2008
02:43 PM
Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 14 2008
03:14 AM
i love ukraine i know people from there and i know their culture, if russia invades them then i'd feel as if they invaded america.  Europe needs backbone too, but in georgia the usa should focus there and let europe deal with ukraine and russia.

Russia isn't as powerful as you may think. Its military suffers from very low morale and is equipped with ancient equipment. Remember Russia's war in Chechnya? Well, it showed how weak the Russian army could be.

Another thing, Russia isn't fluxing its muscles for just any reason. It feels threatened because of constant NATO expansion as well as missiles being places in eastern Europe etc. Russia's invasion of Georgia (a nation that wants to join NATO) may have been its way of saying " Hey, we're not going to stand by while we are completely surrounded by a western military alliance."

That's very true about Russia feeling threatened, but here's my issue with NATO expansion.

North Atlantic Treaty Organisation

Remind me: where exactly does Eastern Europe touch the North Atlantic? It's absolutely ridiculous. It's the US trying to box Russia in, Turkey, Georgia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria - all should not be in NATO.

but georgia WANTS to join NATO and if they want to then they should have the freedom to not be attacked for it.
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West Fryslan
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Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 14 2008
09:22 PM
Niongor,Aug 14 2008
02:22 PM
Kyleslavia,Aug 14 2008
02:43 PM
Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 14 2008
03:14 AM
i love ukraine i know people from there and i know their culture, if russia invades them then i'd feel as if they invaded america.  Europe needs backbone too, but in georgia the usa should focus there and let europe deal with ukraine and russia.

Russia isn't as powerful as you may think. Its military suffers from very low morale and is equipped with ancient equipment. Remember Russia's war in Chechnya? Well, it showed how weak the Russian army could be.

Another thing, Russia isn't fluxing its muscles for just any reason. It feels threatened because of constant NATO expansion as well as missiles being places in eastern Europe etc. Russia's invasion of Georgia (a nation that wants to join NATO) may have been its way of saying " Hey, we're not going to stand by while we are completely surrounded by a western military alliance."

That's very true about Russia feeling threatened, but here's my issue with NATO expansion.

North Atlantic Treaty Organisation

Remind me: where exactly does Eastern Europe touch the North Atlantic? It's absolutely ridiculous. It's the US trying to box Russia in, Turkey, Georgia, Poland, Romania, Bulgaria - all should not be in NATO.

but georgia WANTS to join NATO and if they want to then they should have the freedom to not be attacked for it.

Russia was wrong in its actions but I agree with Nio/kit, eastern europe is no where near the north atlantic,they shouldnt be allowed to jion.

A lot of people in Netherlands do not like the idea of NATO now being essentially a tool for the US to extend her influence and military coverage. Basically NATO is now the latest puppet of the US. The French disagreed with American policy in regards to NATO and how it is US-centric and the US basically answered with "You don't have to be in NATO, this is an organisation for the US and her allies." this was basically showing the US view on NATO, it serves the US or no-one!

Which got loads of media coverage in europe but non in the US and UK :eyebrow:
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Kartoffel Kanzler
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NATO is an alliance similiar to the allies of ww2 and the british leaded that for their own did they not? So did the Axis and the many other alliances of past, there has to be a leader. I think that there should be a democratic alliance for any free and democratic country which would include: Georgia, Europe(except russia), north america(except mexico), south america, Some of Asia and some other areas that are truly free and want to stay that way, but right now NATO is the closest thing to that, and aren't ALL seas connected? So theoretically you could claim all seas are the same, and therefore georgia could be on the coast of an atlantic extension, and they could be in nato because of their extensive inportence. Russia doesn't like oil competition and they want georgia and any other competition, tsar putin really leads the nation, and they were supposed to have another president... Georgia is innocent and needs american support, but BUSH needs backbone!
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Niongor
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Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 15 2008
08:57 AM
and aren't ALL seas connected? So theoretically you could claim all seas are the same, and therefore georgia could be on the coast of an atlantic extension,

What about land locked Czech Republic :P :lol:

I like NATO, it's a kick ass force that showed the world how excellent it is during the Bosnian disputes (an operation that was actually British lead).

I don't think NATO is Ameri-centric, just America is the loudest member :rolleyes: Like I said the British lead operations in Bosnia which Bill Clinton was apprently massively impressed by, but then considering he authorised USAF to bomb a medicine factory in Serbia, I'm not surprised NATO was willing to give the UK control over that issue :lol:

NATO in my eyes is a force for good, afterall, if it wasn't for NATO, right now, Iceland would have no form of defence because Iceland has NO armed forces and thus relies on the NATO founding ideal of:
Quote:
 
The Parties of NATO agreed that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense will assist the Party or Parties being attacked, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.


Also, in regards to not allowing Russia in - AGREED!! As the first Secretary General said, "The goal of NATO is to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down!" :D :lol:

Often, some people, and unfortunately you're one of them WF, fail to realise the huge role the UK (and others) actually play in NATO, it's not all American. I'm still not keen on some Eastern Europe states being in NATO, especially not Turkey. I loath that country.
"There is no next time: it's now or never!"

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Kartoffel Kanzler
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Paul Emil Rocks
a reporter from turkey got shot in the eye yesterday, poor guy.... :cry:

also i might be movin to singapore soon, anybody know anytin bout it?
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Kyleslavia
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Kartoffel Kanzler
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Paul Emil Rocks
poor poor georgia... its like a mini USA in the soviet union... and putin loves that idea......


cool criminals gettin treatment they truly deserve.

Im kinda tough on crimes myself....
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Kyleslavia
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Kartoffel Kanzler,Aug 21 2008
05:51 PM
poor poor georgia... its like a mini USA in the soviet union... and putin loves that idea......


cool criminals gettin treatment they truly deserve.

Im kinda tough on crimes myself....

Georgia is nothing like a "mini USA." For ten years, Georgia was ruled by President Shevardnadze who rigged every election in order to stay in power. Democracy in Georgia didn't arrive until the Rose Revolution, in which Saakashvili,, along with protesters, stormed an opening session of the Georgian Parliament. When Saakashvili, took over, he too ruled a bit on the harsh side. He limited the freedom of the Georgian press and stomped out opposition. Georgia is also on the unstable side, which isn't all the work of Russia. There are other former soviet countries that are democratic and stable, such as Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia etc.

Also, President Bush is far from holy as well. He invaded Iraq based on a whole slab of lies. He has frequently violated the constitution by doing things such as tapping phone lines and torturing prisoners.

Is Bush really all that different from Vladimir Putin?
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Kartoffel Kanzler
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Paul Emil Rocks
i think saakashvili is more like bush than anything else. I'd have to compare putin to maybe mussolini or hitler in the fact he has support and they have very strong militaries and all the USA is doing right now is "appeasing" the putin regime, we need to put a line in the sand and if russia crosses it in georgia then they officially declare war and are the aggressors. They really aren't a democracy when people speak out, they are often tranquilized(or used to be). Putin really is in charge no matter what. I only wish the US populance was more willing to show backbone like in ww1 or 2 or the war of 1812 or the civil war or korea or vietnam, or the american revolution. Georgia did nothing to start the war, the russians used their ossetian pawn to force georgia to war. Its like if onterio decided to join the USA i'd think that canada would do something.
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Kyleslavia
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You could argue with it both ways, I could say that it was Georgia's fault for invading South Ossetia and killing Russian peacekeepers.

Also, the United States most likely is not going to get into a direct confrontation with Russia over Georgia. As it stands now, it just isn't worth it.

You also have to understand that Russia bluffs a lot, it isn't going to get itself into a mess that it can't get itself out of.
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Kartoffel Kanzler
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you'd be surprised, russia is planning to freeze relations with many nato nations. No country should be considered not worth saving from an oppressor. The russians also massacred the georgians. Both did things that weren't the most humane things in the world. Georgia should have all of it's provinces and russia should completely leave the area. Russia should of keep out of the affair so that way it could be similiar to the american civil war so that way when things get out of hand, non-biased countries could aid humanitarian wise things to both sides. Then it'd probably end with georgia winning back its rebel provinces. Russia wan't georgia to be annexed so that way they get all the oil. If they control oil then they control europe and a europe friendly and oil power of georgia threatened them. The first thing the russians bombed was a very important and vital oil line that was competition with the ruskies. I think it's europes responsibility to guarentee the independance of all eastern european countries and georgia. I am proud of poland allowing us to put interceptor missiles in their country. Now russia is very, very, veeeerrrrryyyyy much less likely to invade that country. And if they do, we'd have missiles to shoot their nukes right outa the sky!
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Kyleslavia
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Interesting, so how do you think Russia feels about Kosovo's independence from Serbia?
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