| Welcome to Keep On Trekkin! You are currently viewing our forum as a guest. In order to join in on community discussion and enjoy other member-only features, you must first register an account. Once your registration is complete, you will be able to continue your Trek here at KOT. Click Here To Register and Join Our Community! Please contact us HERE if you have any questions or you need assistance with your registration. ![]() If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Ohio Rejects Collective Bargaining Law; Governor Kasich Dealt Major Defeat | |
|---|---|
| Topic Started: Nov 11 2011, 12:52 PM (151 Views) | |
| caltrek | Nov 11 2011, 12:52 PM Post #1 |
|
Lieutenant Commander
|
|
![]() |
|
| Frimp | Nov 11 2011, 12:58 PM Post #2 |
|
Twilight frakking sucks
|
Note to self....Never move to Ohio. |
![]() |
|
| Dandandat | Nov 14 2011, 07:08 PM Post #3 |
|
Shirley
|
And in other news Ohio's Economy continues to be sluggish, population growth is well below national average, and any gains that Ohio has made to drop its unemployment rate below national average have evaporated in recent months. Maybe if $37 million was better spent on productive actions rather than trying to scare people to vote a certain way things would be better for Ohio. |
![]() |
|
| caltrek | Nov 16 2011, 07:17 AM Post #4 |
|
Lieutenant Commander
|
Democracy may cost money, but I think it is well worth the price. |
![]() |
|
| Dandandat | Nov 16 2011, 11:38 AM Post #5 |
|
Shirley
|
I think that statement is way too simplistic. Sure Democracy is worth a lot of things; so it would be hard for someone to argue against your point. But “Democracy may cost money, but I think it is well worth the price.” cannot and should not be used to justify inefficiency, downright wistfulness, and even corruption. Along with the benefit of Democracy comes the responsibility to use it wisely; and in Ohio and the rest of the country we are not using it wisely at all. We are democratically voting our selves over a cliff and that is not worth the price at all. |
![]() |
|
| Frimp | Nov 16 2011, 11:39 AM Post #6 |
|
Twilight frakking sucks
|
Please explain, Caltrek. |
![]() |
|
| caltrek | Nov 16 2011, 07:54 PM Post #7 |
|
Lieutenant Commander
|
By way of explanation, ballot initiatives may cost money, but the outcomes are expression of the democratic will. Now you may not like that, you may prefer a more republican (note the small "r") form of government. With all its faults, I tend to like direct democracy. I am especially pleased of the outcome in Ohio, where I think Kasich overstepped his bounds. I don't see how making that argument and expressing that opinion amounts to justifying "inneficiency, downright wistfulness, and even corruption". It may be that we are "democratically voting ourselve off a cliff", but I don't see the results in Ohio as being evidence of that. In fact, I see it as being evidence of a very healthy desire not to see corporate controlled political elite enjoying a monopoly over political power. In that sense, it is very much an effort to avoid the cliff we are otherwise heading toward. |
![]() |
|
| Deleted User | Nov 16 2011, 08:01 PM Post #8 |
|
Deleted User
|
Don't drive through Ohio either. There's multiple speed traps - way more than in Metro Detroit! |
|
|
| Dandandat | Nov 17 2011, 07:23 AM Post #9 |
|
Shirley
|
One of Ohio's (and other places around the countries) biggest problems is that they can no longer afford the result of decades of Collective Bargaining; this is not a new problem that stated in 2008 it has been apparent for many years before that and those involved in Collective Bargaining ignored the problem. There is no disputing this fact. So here you have a government that stepped in and did something bold about the problem; are they 100% right? I don’t know, but they did something when no one else was willing too. And then the people who where effected by the change (the people who spent years ignoring the problem) got angry that their world was changing and bought back the old times and old problems with 30 million dollars. Here in New York we have similar problems and in recent years we have had Democratic leaders (Big D) who could no longer ignore the problems and took bold steps (even cutting into their own voting base) in an attempt to fix the problems. We have commercials all the time paid for by some origination that tries to inform the viewer that “while we accept that we all need to tighten our belts origination of choice can’t afford the cuts evil politician is trying to accomplish and here are some scary reasons why” Here and now in 2011 everyone is willing to accept we have problems that need to be fixed and that hard decisions need to be made; but just like pre 2008 most people aren’t willing to take the steps necessary. What happened in Ohio might be great from the point of view of academic principles of democracy; it’s great to see that democracy in and of itself does work, that a vote means something, and that the individual can make a difference* …. But in the real world, where a job is more important than unashamed collective bargaining rights Ohio is no closer to fixing their problems and are in fact further way than they where this time last year. I’m sorry I can’t see that as a triumph of democracy; A democratic society that continually makes the wrong choices is not with just any price. |
![]() |
|
| Frimp | Nov 17 2011, 01:13 PM Post #10 |
|
Twilight frakking sucks
|
For one thing, this is a represenative republic. Another thing, I do not want to be in a union. Ever. And, certain Democrats want it to be manditory to be in a union in order to work. That is unconstitutional. So is forcing health insurance on people. So is picking which articles of the constitution are which keeping and which are not, as an NBC dolt did recently. |
![]() |
|
| caltrek | Nov 18 2011, 11:37 AM Post #11 |
|
Lieutenant Commander
|
Frimp, If this were completely a representiative republic, there would be no ballot propositions and initiatives. That is a form of direct democracy. Please point out to me where in the Constituion it prohibits union activity in the way in which you claim it does. |
![]() |
|
| caltrek | Nov 18 2011, 11:50 AM Post #12 |
|
Lieutenant Commander
|
Dandandat, I don't think that it is the unions that are to blame for the state's sudden problems in affording the services it could once afford. I think that can be traced back to a sudden decline in revenues that can in turn be traced back to an economic collapse. The cause of that collapse was not the unions, but rampant greed and a lack of proper regulation of the major finacial institutions of this country. So it would not seem to me to make much sense to attack the unions in such circumstances. As far as trying to fix the problems, this reminds me of the recent work of Naomi Klein. She has written about how many elites use crises to advance their own long term agendas. So, when a politician like the governor of Ohio goes after a long standing supporter of his political opponents, I have to wonder if he is really more interested in his own political gain than he is with fixing a problem. I am not sure about Ohio, but I know that in Wisconsin, the unions were quite willing to make concessions in recognition that the state was in hard times. They were willing to pitch in to help the state get through a rough spot. In return, they received a kick in the teeth. Governor Kasich certainly kicked the unions in the teeth in Ohio. So again, I don't think the voters of Ohio made the wrong choice. They simply recognized a cynical political manuever for what it was. Edit: Correction of typo and spelling of a name. Edited by caltrek, Nov 20 2011, 10:36 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| Dandandat | Nov 18 2011, 02:32 PM Post #13 |
|
Shirley
|
Caltrek; Union compensation and benefits and how they where/are ballooning passed a point that their respective governments could handle has been an issue far longer than 2008. The baby boomer generation retirement and the pensions and health benefits where going to put a serious strain on local and state governments. The only thing 2008 did was hasten the decline. One need only look at California to see that there was nothing sudden about the current problems being seen all over. This was a long time coming, and a long time ignored. The post 2008 difference is that where there now and it can’t be ignored (although it seems like every one still wants to ignore it). As for union’s they are a long out dated concept that really have a much smaller place in our society as compared to their need in the past. |
![]() |
|
| caltrek | Nov 25 2011, 10:29 AM Post #14 |
|
Lieutenant Commander
|
I simply cannot agree that unions are an outdated concept. If they are so outdated, then there would not have been the massive show of support that they have enjoyed in places like Ohio and Wisconsin. Moreover, I think the Citizens United case has made them more relevant that ever. If coporations are to be granted the rights of individuals, then it only makes sense that unions and other such organizations will become more important as a counter weight to corporate influence. I couldn't find a link to a recent article in The American Prospect in which the great success of Local 6 of the hotel and restuarant worker's union in New York is described. Mick Wannamaker, a veteran banquet waiter, is quoted as saying "The union takes jobs and turns them into professions. It makes better managers out of management." I think that is well stated. |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| « Previous Topic · Extra! Extra! Read All About It! · Next Topic » |

















11:46 PM May 21