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| The Obvious Question | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Feb 4 2006, 12:45 AM (837 Views) | |
| FusedFox | Feb 5 2006, 04:29 AM Post #41 |
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First Grade
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I agree. I think that instead of simply having an intro topic, we should have a forum where members can post an intro topic and then members can welcome the new members and give them some advice and a kind of "guide" to the forum. That might help the noob bashing as well. |
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| Potter | Feb 5 2006, 04:35 AM Post #42 |
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Third Grade
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The welcome forum could also be used for goodbyes and birthdays. |
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| Yodaminch | Feb 5 2006, 04:39 AM Post #43 |
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Administrator
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revolving door forum maybe? |
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| dlf | Feb 5 2006, 04:42 AM Post #44 |
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Second Grade
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Then would you ever now and them (periodic?) clean it out? |
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| FusedFox | Feb 5 2006, 04:48 AM Post #45 |
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First Grade
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I'm against cleaning it out. Some people might want to go back and look to remember their first day on IF. I know I would if I could. So maybe just set the default cut off date for a month, like the current Revolving Door topic? |
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| Jappyx | Feb 5 2006, 05:53 AM Post #46 |
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Second Grade
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Agreed.
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 10:04 AM Post #47 |
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Second Grade
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And other quotes, please remember: If you can't be bothered to help people, If you want to make the community forums stricter, If you want every little thing that people to do wrong to have a permenate effect on the rest of their time with IF. IMHO, you're not the right people for the community think tank. Just a suggestion, but isn't the community forums, a place where members can freely talk about what doesn't fit into the other topics? If you want to turn it into a high-security prison with razor wire, and whatnot, I quit here and now. I joined this think tank to make the community forums more welcome, more friendly and more fun. I did not join to discuss punishments. For goodness sake people, just think about what the community forum is for, before you post your punishment and anti-ideas. Thanks. |
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| DreamWiva | Feb 5 2006, 10:11 AM Post #48 |
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First Grade
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wouldnt it be better if there was a forum where all members can make one topic in the forum. What i mean is, that a new member makes a topic in this forum with their name on as the title, and they can introduce themselves. Other members can reply welcoming them. The new member can ask questions in this topic so they feel less intimidated, compared to making a new topic in community chat. Or older members can still make their own topic in the forum, and still introduce themselves, and people can post "Happy Birthday" messages, and maybe members can get to know them through other member topics in that forum, I know it means spam but at least it will limit it in one topic, and maybe post count should be disabled in that forum. That way you can get to know members through their own topics, if you understand what i mean. Ive found an example |
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 10:26 AM Post #49 |
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Second Grade
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Yeah, that sounds like a cool idea |
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| Das | Feb 5 2006, 10:48 AM Post #50 |
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Second Grade
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-IF is not Doctor Phil. I don't mind helping, but realtionships aren't really worth it. -There is a differense between stricter, and cleaner. More punishments, for repeat offenders isn't be bad. Repeat offenders. That means they know what thier doing is wrong, they did it anyway, and they deserve punishment. -How is making five topics in a row after a mod locks them a 'little thing'? Within reason. Community chat is not to advertise, make any post about your day(there are blogs for that), and in general make a topic that others can't reply to. If you're talking about you that dosn't belong in community chat. Like I just said: Discusion = Good Breaking the rules once = Tolerable Break the rules multipul times = bad. I don't want to see Com Chat become a prison, I want to see repeat offenders be throw in a prison. Less rule breaking makes a forum more friendly. You can't have a friendly forum with a ton of people going around flaming people. You need to deal with punishments. Do you think the mods get up every morning thinking: "I really wanna' post disable someone today"? No. Well maybe Jerebear did, but that's different :r. Talking about punishments is required for a good community. What is the point in rules with no punishments? As I said multipul times without punishments, people run free. They do what they want, be it spam, flame, or other harmful things. Punishments are nessasary. |
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 10:56 AM Post #51 |
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Second Grade
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Well then, please explain to me exactly what comunity chat is for, as so far you have only told me what it is not for. I thought community chat was a place where members could get to know other members in an informal enviroment, cleary, I was wrong. |
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| Das | Feb 5 2006, 11:06 AM Post #52 |
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Second Grade
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That's exactly what it is for. The problem is you get too much: 1. Advertisements. 2. Dumb Posts. 3. Dumb Topics (Such as: 'Today I went to the mall') No body can really reply to that. 4. Un-open-ended conversations, such as the one above. 5. Repeat topics. 6. Which browser is best topic that become flame wars. 7. Spam. For example these are some of the current threads: What Stupid Things Have You Done? [Ok thread, gets the community involved] Poll: How old is everyone? [Ok--, you get to know the community, but there are about a 1,000 of these] Getting New Computer~ Help? [Ok--, this is one of those topics that one or two replies can answer. It's good that they ask, but it dosn't really get the communtiy involved.] Sudukos Formula? [Pretty Good, it's about something intellegent, though it can be answered in one or two posts] April Fools Day 2006 [Great! It's about the IF community, and every can have a say.] St Georges day [Ok, it's a little esoteric] NBA vs NFL [Bad++, can you smell flame wars?] This is just freaky [Horrible, full of false infromation.] Apocylipzz forum host [Good, it's about IF, and everyone can reply] Can you rate my deck? [A little specific, but aslong as people play the game it ok] Niggardly [Great, a good intellegent discusion] Poll: Tea or coffee? [Meh, atleast you get to know the community] Favourite country. [Same as the last] |
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 11:16 AM Post #53 |
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Second Grade
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I don't think someone posting a link is really the end of the world
Neither is that, just don't reply to them.
I disagree, people have blogs, and people read other people's blogs, why shouldn't we have these topics? Maybe a "how was your day thread" is a solution?
They don't get replies, end of. It's not the end of the world!
Solution --> Pin common topics
"My browser is better than yours!" Do you think people really care about these comments?
Again, not the end of the world
So no problem!
Pin it then!
A guy just wants help, exactly what the community is for!
Again, exactly what the community is for!
No problem
So we can't have holiday topics now?
No I cannot, I shall be proven wrong when one starts.
DON'T REPLY TO IT THEN! LEAVE THE PEOPLE WHO STARTED IT TO IT! THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP WILL!
So no problem! |
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| Das | Feb 5 2006, 11:30 AM Post #54 |
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Second Grade
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I don't think someone posting a link is really the end of the world --It's annoying to see 3 closed threads in a row, and it looks bad.
Neither is that, just don't reply to them. --What's your solution when they ruin a good topic?
I disagree, people have blogs, and people read other people's blogs, why shouldn't we have these topics? Maybe a "how was your day thread" is a solution? --This is Community discusion not individual discusion.
They don't get replies, end of. It's not the end of the world! --Then it's just a useless thread creating clutter.
Solution --> Pin common topics --And have 20 pinned topics? I do however like the idea of a list of common topics.
"My browser is better than yours!" Do you think people really care about these comments? --Yes. If they didn't there wouldn't be a topic in the first place. Desides the fact most of IF is biased.
Again, not the end of the world --Oh of course people post p00 to get a higher post count and ruining people's threads is ok :rolleyes:.
Pin it then! --So your topic should be pinned where as the first one shouldn't? I like the idea of a polling forum.
A guy just wants help, exactly what the community is for! --I know. It's not bad, just not good.
Again, exactly what the community is for! -- Did I say it wasn't?
So we can't have holiday topics now? -- I never said it was bad, just not one of the top ten best.
No I cannot, I shall be proven wrong when one starts. -- :rolleyes:
DON'T REPLY TO IT THEN! LEAVE THE PEOPLE WHO STARTED IT TO IT! THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO HELP WILL! --IF should have trustable infromation. It seems you're in the mind set of: Everything is great let's not do anything. This is a place to suggest improvments and changes. Not let's keep everything the same :). |
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| Jory | Feb 5 2006, 12:17 PM Post #55 |
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First Grade
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And then, in half of those topics, you would see the same questions. It may be me, but I get tired of awnsering the same question over and over again.... I do however like the idea of something like a Resolving Door subforum. And just have new members post topics with there questions there, maybe have a pinned topic that lists those questions. (If they got a good awnser.) So like the code index. |
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| DreamWiva | Feb 5 2006, 12:31 PM Post #56 |
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First Grade
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it may be the same question, but its meant for different members. There may be alot of "how old are you" questions in these member topics, but its only that specific member that answers them anyway, you wont need to answer the same question more than once. |
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| Jory | Feb 5 2006, 12:37 PM Post #57 |
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First Grade
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I was aiming at the questions the new members would be asking.I read that right, right? |
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| DreamWiva | Feb 5 2006, 12:44 PM Post #58 |
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First Grade
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well then maybe your idea may solve that
New members are going to ask the same questions no matter what, whether the answers available or not. Its how we all started. Its the fact that us older members should give them the answers they need just like members older than us gave us the answers when we needed it. and im quite sure that when new members begin to fit in, theyd use less and less of their "member topic" and begin to contribute to the main community chat. |
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| Homestar | Feb 5 2006, 02:18 PM Post #59 |
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First Grade
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Ok just read the Das and ibh thing i am affraid i agree with das. ibh i was around when community chat was really active and its stuff like what browser are you using and i went to the mall today that s making the level of CC go down. Once upon a time you used to get excited about going to CC but these days i go there to see how many more stupid posts have been made. I see where you are coming from but the fact is we need better rules and we need to encourage not force people to make more worth while threads. |
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| Tachyon | Feb 5 2006, 05:36 PM Post #60 |
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Third Grade
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A lot of good posts going on here. ![]() I agree with Yodaminch that the whole punishment notification thing is disturbing. I too will PM someone after restricting them (email if it is a suspension). I've had lengthy discussions over email with people afterward. It's also good because it puts you in touch with the staff member who restricted you, because ultimately they are the ones who need to judge. I've been PMed before by a member to remove another staff member's restriction, and have refused, simply because I have no way of judging the legitimacy of the punishment (if there are no links or anything). When that happens, I trust the staff member's judgement, since all of our staff are pretty reasonable people. (Except that baaaad, baaad Tachyon fellow. Don't trust him.) However, I don't think that Community Chat is as broken as it is overshadowed. The good portions of Community Chat get pushed to the side and we focus on the things like frequent advertising, n00b bashing, and flame topics. Community Chat as it is right now works. It doesn't work as smoothly as it could, I grant you. But members do get to discuss topics, and I see a lot of discussion going on, even if it isn't as intelletually stimulating as a rousing debate about poverty in Africa. ![]() The negative aspects overwhelm, however. We need to figure out a way to push these to the side so that when a member stumbles into the Community Chat forum, they say, "Oh look, there's an interesting topic," instead of "OMG there's locked topics! And flames! OMG!"
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 07:19 PM Post #61 |
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Second Grade
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That's a bit petty, pin whichever one you like, it has nothing to do with who started it.
Not to be a snitch or anything, but I heard many complaints about PhranK suspending without notification. Also, a lot of staff banned a lot of members during s13 downtime, we only wanted some information! |
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| Aaron | Feb 5 2006, 07:25 PM Post #62 |
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First Grade
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But you do not get the information by spamming, flaming, and not following the rules. I ended up over 3 days after you add up the hours in one topic moding it. stright. I PM/Email the poeple I suspend or disable excepted for once or twice but eater I got to them or another member of staff did.
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 07:29 PM Post #63 |
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Second Grade
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OK, Aaron, you're off the hook
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| Yodaminch | Feb 5 2006, 07:50 PM Post #64 |
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Administrator
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s13 turned into martial law to be blunt. We gave all the information we had and what we recieved were threats, flames and attacks. They violated the board rules. And while I personally let it go for several times hoping they'd calm down, when they ignored my verbal warnings, I did suspend. We didn't ban anyone to my knowledge, though certain people actually deserved a board deletion for some of their comments. Luckily for them, Brandon decided against that action. |
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| ibh | Feb 5 2006, 08:30 PM Post #65 |
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Second Grade
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I think the best comment of all during s13 was when Seth said: "The staff are overworked and tired" I realise you guys were trying your best, but we all had a laugh with comments back such as: "you haven't done anything!" "yeah, clicking that "suspend" button must be tough!" But you know, it wasn't IF's fault, so lets drop this conversation now. |
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| Yodaminch | Feb 5 2006, 08:56 PM Post #66 |
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Administrator
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Well we were overworked. Over 200 topics on s13 were made. we have the list. probably 50 people were verbally warned. another bunch of tickets were likely made and about 20 people attempted to avoid punishment with duplicate accounts. I was on general support 6 hours straight splitting topics, pming members and trying to do my normal job in community which i completely neglected. Sam was sick and spent 4 or 5 hours in there helping. Trust me when I say it was exhausting. Anyone who thinks differently is welcome to see my pm box or the trash can. |
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| Drangonsile | Feb 5 2006, 09:14 PM Post #67 |
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Second Grade
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I wouldn't mind being allowed to log into your account (purly to see the PMs of course) .I think Duffy should get a spare server to load backups onto, whenever one of the reg servers fries itself in protest. But I doubt he would waste the money on a free service. I agree that gaming discussion should be annexed, and a Survey/Poll/welcome (Maybe called "get to know others") put in its place. |
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| OcelotJay | Feb 6 2006, 09:58 AM Post #68 |
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First Grade
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I agree with you there, as I've stated in the other topic that raises this. Basically repeat offenders should be punished however those who have only just done this should instead be spoken to, so we can try and avoid it in future (rather than possibly spurring it on).
It pretty much is a rule for us. It's not set in stone, as such, since we're supposed to be smart enough to know what we can and can't do but it is something that is outlined to us. Or it was. *OcelotJay hasn't read the guideline stuff lately. If you've been punished and not notified about it, you should contact an administrator. Seth can check the warn logs and confirm if an email was sent. If not, he usually retracts the warn and removes the punishment. I personally make sure that a user is notified if he or she is warned, unless the warn is actually just a note for staff and not an official warn. Can't wait for notes after the upgrade! ![]()
Uh sure, lets all live in a dream world, eh? InvisionFree cannot allow freedom of speech entirely what with the laws we have to obey, and the general rules we need to have. If we allowed freedom of speech, many of us would be attacked because of our background, sexuality, gender, political stances, etc etc. We'd encourage discrimination and stupidity, when we're supposed to be ridding of it as best we can. :mellow:
It's advertising. If we bite people's heads off (usually those who should know better) it's because you're completely and intentionally ignoring the big red text that says No Advertising, in both forum rules and individual forums. If we don't allow people to promote their forums, why should we allow it for the bigger ones? It's unfair on everyone else and we'd be accused of favouritism. Besides, there's no reason to link to a forum in a post except 1) in support (your own board), 2) graphics/skins (test boards) and 3) graphic requests.
Seth was doing his job. I'd pat him on the back. The fact is, creating a second (or more) account to bypass a punishment is not allowed, as clearly stated in our rules. I can't specifically talk about whether your brother was told why as it was no dealt with by myself (thus no evidence, either way, is accessible). Also, if he was suspended I'm confused as to why he needed a second account. Suspension are not long term, they run out eventually. Why did he not just wait?
Firstly, I don't support a life support forum, so I'd like to ensure that's made clear before I begin. ![]() But dealing with suicide should not be the main reason for saying no. Suicide is something that happens, something some of us have had to deal with. Just because it's not a pleasant, and for some a terrifying, experience or situation to deal with does not justify shutting things off just to avoid it. As you've said, we sometimes get topics about it (they tend to go unnoticed by non-staff and receive little posts) and the panic I see in the staff room is ridiculous. Maybe my personal experience has made me less prone to worry but I fail to see why we should panic. If they want to talk about it then why not let them? They will not simply influence everyone. Anyone on our forum who is so easily influenced does not deserve to be protected since they're either 1) underaged and have no place there or 2) not capable of having their own free will, thus should not be encouraged to participate in an open community that is diverse before seeking help to deal with their influencial nature. Alternatively, we can simply discourage such topics and say we're not at liberty to deal with them. But either way, we shouldn't be overly concerned. We cannot protect our users from self harm, nor should we feel obligated to do so. One must not forget that not everyone is who they claim to be, and we are prone to attracting fakes and drama queens (Count Ducky springs to mind). So we either say yay or nay, but we need to make our minds up so that if future topics crop up then we know how to deal with them. On a side note, the whole contacting staff seems to be an issue from time to time. Would it perhaps be worthwhile there being a place on the forum with our emails? We all have InvisionFree ones so why not make them public in an official capacity? SPAM may occur but they're not [supposed to be] our mainstream emails so we can handle that. If nothing else, if someone is punished but not notified for some reason then at least they would be able to contact a member of staff to find out what's going on. |
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| Yodaminch | Feb 6 2006, 04:00 PM Post #69 |
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Administrator
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I definately think we should add IF e-mails somewhere. Maybe when the doc page is ready pop em all there and post link to it in board rules, pinned topics, forum rules etc. And the reason I take suicide so seriously is one of the members here actually did commit it. And regardless of Coppa, 13 year olds are not yet able to handle that. That and we never know if its fake. Yes its unnavoidable, and normally I tend to give the issue to Seth when it does pop up, but suicide is just one issue. We could recieve topics dealing with sexual abuse, drugs, child abuse etc. I say could because, a glance at the board rules should be enough, but you never know. |
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| ibh | Feb 6 2006, 06:30 PM Post #70 |
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Second Grade
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Not that we should be discussing individual cases, but I think he got restricted or something. Knowing my little brother, he'd probably only been on 2 seconds! He gets banned from lots of boards, which is a pain in the bum for me if it's an IP ban... |
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| OcelotJay | Feb 7 2006, 01:11 AM Post #71 |
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First Grade
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While I disagree with the generalising of under 13s (I know I was fully aware of suicide and its effects when I was only 11), I understand the wish to protect minors. But still, if they're minors then they shouldn't be around. And if they are around legally then their parents should actually get of their arses and try being proper parents by checking out the forum, its standards and the topics we allow. I don't see why we should disallow something on the basis of irresponsible/uncaring parents and the possibility that minors may come by. Think about forums that deal with these issues: they exist yet they are more likely to have minors stumble across them due to them being on specific subjects (thus they appear more so in searches). I doubt they'd close themselves down just to protect a bunch of kids. The internet is a highway of information, and sheltering people from harsh reality seems anti-cybernetic community spirit. "Shit happens", as PhranK would say. It's how we deal with it that matters. I'm fine with not allowing it but I disagree with saying no simply because we want to take on parental responsibilities that are not ours. We have a duty to our members, granted, but I'm not about to support wiping their backsides and wrapping them in cotton wool. If people can't handle the darker side of humanity, they shouldn't be allowed out of their houses (or on the internet). By law there are things we have to censor but if we don't have to, and we want to promote a varied and intelligent (and mature) community, I feel we have to take serious issues on board and at least react with the best intention for all members and not a minority of prepubescents who're still hanging onto their mother's apron strings. Also, I'd like to enquire into what evidence there is of a suicide threat being real? I know there was one some time ago where people said it had happened but I don't remember there being any proof other than some message from a panicing administrator. Until I see evidence that the person did commit suicide, I'm inclined to believe otherwise. Maybe I'm being cold or overly cautious but I've dealt with people saying they're going to do it and then not just to get attention and I utterly despise such people.
Indeed, as we never know it's true. Dismissing it outrighly is not what I suggest but to take it as if it's true, without challenging it, seems to be giving out far too much trust. It's like handing over bank details to some random user you've IMed. Talk to the person but be mindful. It's why I say we shouldn't get emotionally involved in such situations; you could be played for a fool and not realise it. And such things ultimately lead to a loss of faith in people. =/
I know the TOU/S forbids discussion of drugs in a manner that is promoting them, but I believe, as with sex, clinnical discussions are fine. Both of those topics seem acceptable to me so long as it's not promoting the actions and it remains purely mature and does not degrade into something more sinister. I can't see where in the board rules we condemn the discussion of child abuse or drugs or such. I'm not saying we need to resort to these topics in order to advance but my overall point is that we need to open up a bit more. Stop trying to shield people. Our responsabilities towards members should only be to protect them from insults and slurs, as well as predators, pedophiles, internet stalkers and anything that the TOU disallows. We shouldn't take on extra roles by enforcing restrictions because some people who shouldn't be there might see certain things. The key is that they should not be there in the first place. It's like shutting down sex shops in Soho to prevent kids from seeing them; parents should be doing their jobs and actually looking after their kids, taking an interest in their well being and ensuring they don't do anything stupid. We have to either make a stance and support real life, and all it entails, or say no to it and disallow serious discussions on any real life related articles, but we shouldn't pick 'n' mix to prevent arguments or whatever. There are topics that may be prone to attracting flaming but we should deal with the people who commit the offence, not punish everyone by introducing more bans and rules. That's what the British Government has been trying to do for years and look where it got us: civil strife, political turmoil and the promotion of discrimination and hatred. |
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| Yodaminch | Feb 7 2006, 01:46 AM Post #72 |
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Administrator
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regarding the one suicide I know of: I located 3 seperate sources that confirmed it. And the reason I personally want to shield someone from it, is because these are calls for help that we aren't equipted to handle. These topics end up with a bunch of members posting don't do it messages and then never knowing what happened to the person. Not something I'd like on my conscience. Regarding discussion on something like Medical Marijunna, I'd be more open to this obviously. But that's not what an advice forum would be about. There could be people discussing trying to quit or shooting up etc. More things underage members shouldn't be exposed to. I agree we shouldn't be parenting. That's not our job. However, being a support board first, we need to follow the services rules and set the example. I can't see an advice forum being a good thing. I'd much rather go with a debate or This is me forum first. |
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| Das | Feb 7 2006, 02:25 AM Post #73 |
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Second Grade
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I'm just gonna' quickly throw in any medical topics are bad, and probably should be closed on sight. If you give out bad info in those, and the person gets hurt worse or even dies *boom* lawsuit against you and Invisionfree. |
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| Potter | Feb 7 2006, 02:27 AM Post #74 |
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Third Grade
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Maybe 'favorite' and poll topics could go in this 'Revolving Door' forum. |
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| Tachyon | Feb 7 2006, 03:51 AM Post #75 |
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Third Grade
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But I think that dilutes the Community Chat too much. There's a very obvious line between serious topics that will engender debate, and topics that are lighter. There's a thinner line between the topics (such as 'favourite topics') that are very, very light, and the more stimulating friendly (non-debating discussions). I really don't want to try and draw such a line. It'll just make things more confusing for members and staff alike. My only reasoning behind a separate forum for debate is that it clearly establishes a place for members to go to see and post these topics. In essence, it focuses those topics. That leaves the rest of Community Chat a nice, safe place to converse in a friendly manner. A sub-forum entirely for very light topics gets too much like Ratings and Games for me (which I think should disappear quietly without a flaming burst of glory). Speaking of which: Ratings and Games? What gets rated, really? :/ If we keep it around, let's rename it to something even more innocuous but descriptive.
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| Das | Feb 7 2006, 03:53 AM Post #76 |
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Second Grade
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Avatars. Sigs. But it does need to get re-named. |
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| Tachyon | Feb 7 2006, 04:06 AM Post #77 |
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Third Grade
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I always thought those sorts of things were better put in Graphics Talk/Display? Where people who actually care about graphics hang out?Shows how out of step I am.
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| zorg222 | Feb 8 2006, 04:06 PM Post #78 |
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First Grade
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Indeed. A seperate debate forum would lead you right to the deeper topics. Somewhat similar to a public swimming pool. They seperate the pool into shallow and deep sections, right? You don't have a shallow patch, then a deep patch, then a shallow patch, and so on. It is all organized so you know what level of water you're getting into. I think the same concept would be nice for Community Chat. Though, as I have seen brought up before, that would make the "shallower waters" nothing but 3-year olds with water-wingies. There would be no mixture of the deeper water (more serious swimmers) and shallower water (less serious swimmers) so it would become lower quality in the "shallow" area. But, you can't beat the organization that a debate forum would bring. (The serious swimmers don't have to bump into the water-wingy swimmers.) |
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| Yodaminch | Feb 8 2006, 04:41 PM Post #79 |
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Administrator
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I think its time to pass the subforum suggestions to the staff room. |
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| Yodaminch | Feb 8 2006, 05:07 PM Post #80 |
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Administrator
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Ratings and Games could be so much more. I almost want to give it the codes treatment for IF 2 and wipe it so it can be a mix of rate this and more serious type games. |
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stright. I PM/Email the poeple I suspend or disable excepted for once or twice but eater I got to them or another member of staff did.

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2:14 PM Jul 11