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Well this is interesting...
Topic Started: Aug 25 2009, 01:16 PM (1,238 Views)
Sabre_Justice
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On the other hand, I've said this before: the BNP have a rough equivalent with the One Nation party in Australia that existed nearly a decade ago, which advocated similar policies and had an insane, Palin-esque scandal-factory spokeswoman of whom naked photos have recently resurfaced. Eventually they collapsed... but they left an awful legacy.

In John Howard's usual style of doing anything despicable for votes, the Liberal Party embraced many of the policies of One Nation, including draconian human rights-violating 'detention centres' for refugees, spreading rumours that they threw their children overboard from a sinking ship, and there was even talk of screening immigrants from Africa before the opposition finally found a candidate that wasn't insane and mercifully defeated them in a landslide.

The same thing could happen to you- if the BNP gains enough traction, and inevitable begins collapsing from scandals, a mainstream party may begin putting their policies into action to gain voted. Racism may no longer be mainstream but it's still kicking and screaming (what's happening in the USA is testament to that) bad enough for the White Australia Policy to briefly rise from the grave. These bigots need to be consistently told that their beliefs are outdated and not welcome in civilised society, so maybe they'll stay quiet about it and eventually die off.
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flyboy254
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Yeah, you go try that down south in the US.

"Sir, don't you realise that all men of all colors are equal under the law?"

"Yeah, so?" (Throws gas onto a cross)
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HunteRS
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csadn,Aug 27 2009
06:35 AM
Lothar Hex,Aug 26 2009
08:58 AM
"Groups", no. POLITICAL PARTIES yes. This is like the Democrats banning all Black members, or the Republicans telling all Asians to piss off. Bet you'd love people doing things like that going by that comment.

Actually, I would, but not for the reason most people think.

Personally, I *love* the idea of having parties like BNP around -- let them spew
whatever kind of rubbish they want. It would be like a store with a "No Blacks"
policy -- "fine, go ahead; and when you go out of business because no one else
wants to have a fucking thing to do with you, well, maybe you'll get a clue".

Trying to ban or otherwise suppress these idiots fails on two counts:

1) Banning them just sends them underground, and/or forces them to, shall we say,
"the next step" (the one involving explosives), and;
2) If they can be banned, who's next?

So, let the BNP say and do as they like (so long as they aren't assaulting, murdering,
raping, or otherwise harming folks). Their continuing marginalization will prevent
them ever being a legitimate threat -- and if they ever *do* become mainstream,
it should be a Big Honkin' Clue to the current powers "hey, guys -- You Are Fucking
This Up".

For good or ill, Freedom Of Speech means occasionally having to listen to something
you *don't* agree with. (A point rapidly being lost on both sides over here, damn it.)

This is great in theory but a flaw-you assume the British Electorate is educated, well informed on the issues and not hysterical. Our government is dumber than the Sarah Palin (No not an attack on Republicans, yes an attack on a white trash hick with specs) and are the kind of people who need their dicks setting on fire before they realise there may be a problem.
In short-HAHAHAHAHAHA.
I've often said-if the BNP get the keys to Downing street the country has lost it's right to exist. Nuke it from orbit, burn it to the ground, sow earth with salt.
But with an ever increasing population of what I can only politely call Fuckwits, it'll happen one day. Or the Behad-The-Infidels-and-cover-up-their-women Party (If we believe the Daily Fail)
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flyboy254
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Just remember, the US has all your "Start a backyard revolution" needs.
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Sabre_Justice
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HOW DARE THE GUBMINT GIVE POORS HEALTHCARE

Yeah, lately I keep up with politics for my own amusement. As a result I think I've become completely disinterested in holding any kind of political belief beyond certain policies which seem like a good idea. Which is probably a good thing really, political divisions seem to be the console wars for grown-ups.
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csadn
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HunteRS,Aug 27 2009
04:23 PM
This is great in theory but a flaw-you assume the British Electorate is educated, well informed on the issues and not hysterical. Our government is dumber than the Sarah Palin (No not an attack on Republicans, yes an attack on a white trash hick with specs) and are the kind of people who need their dicks setting on fire before they realise there may be a problem.

The US has a pure-Democrat administration now -- the gov't is now the equal in
Stupidity of any other in the world. And the electorate, being 50+% Urban, is too
dumb to comprehend the realities of the world. Hence, Socialized Medicine (read:
Death Panels), Cash For Clunkers (and where did *that* money come from, folks?
I don't recall a Congressional pay cut with it...), and the other recent Obaminations.

The one saving grace? Mosin-Nagants are $99 at local sporting-goods stores -- as
is everything else needed to equip an insurgency.

Hail Cascadia -- this isn't the first time the Pacific Northwest has told a Far-Away
Government to Go Fuck Itself.

>:)
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Hercule Pyro
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csadn,Aug 28 2009
06:40 AM
Socialized Medicine (read:
Death Panels)

Get the fuck off this forum you mouth-breathing hick.

Given what the NHS has done for my family over the years, the very idea that they have some Nazi-esque death panel because they're ZOMG SOCIALIST isn't just wrong, it's fucking repugnant. I think the rest of us here from Blighty will back me up.

Either back that shit up with something solid or get the fuck out of here.
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Twinbladez
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The NHS isn't death panels you bloody twit and even so Obama isn't even suggesting an NHS system.

As far as my puny brain can understand it he is simply creating a Public Insurance option to ensure true competition with the private companies.

But again... You are an idiot

Oh and To say that Democrats are more idiotic than republicans (their Both as stupid as each other most of the time) is Just.... I can't think of a word to describe the Anger at that statement

Ninja Edit: also the idea of a Mosin-nagant a Russian Rifle which got alot of its usage during Communist era Russia for an "Anti Socialist" uprising amuses me
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Kaempfer
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You listen to pretty much anything that Sarah Palin says, don't you csadin? I really don't know why so many Americans are going crazy over anything that has to do with socialism, it's a great political system in theory. Sure I don't agree with the health care plan and think that it's a HUGE mistake seeing how no one has proposed a way to pay for the damn thing, but I don't think that they're going to go around killing everyone over 70 who requires minor medical coverage which all republicans seem to think. These "death panels" as I've heard about them sound more like a more formal form of hospice care than anything else.

I mean GOD, I didn't vote for Obama, but I don't think that he's planning to enslave all of the white people or something. I disagree with most of the things he's done, but I don't go around using terms "Obamanations"! Just shut the fuck up about it and don't vote for him next time. That's all you can do, your whining on the internet isn't going to change a damn thing!

Sorry for the rant, but politics here have just been spinning even deeper into insanity and I'm just sick of both sides. Probably why I'm a libertarian. Sorry again, I'll shut up about all politics for now and go back to writing lame puns.
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Zakarius
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Without the proper procedures, how can we hope to cause chaos?
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Sabre_Justice,Aug 27 2009
03:37 AM
Zakarius,Aug 26 2009
01:14 PM
The worst thing about all this is that it never stops. You get someone saying 'You cant do that, because its not equal!'. Then they'll see something else, and say 'Oh, and thats not equal either, fix it!'. Then something else, and then something else... soon enough you begin to realise that they're seeing problems where problems dont actually exist, all in the name of fairness and equality. THAT is where the issues come from.

We really dont need these people trying to be the champions of everyone, because lets face it, if we wanted them, we'd ask for them. But no, we get these pompous imbeceils pratting about and telling anyone with an opinion that differs from their own utopian viewpoint that they're racist or bigoted or whatever. Blatant hatred and discrimination, sure. No-one wants that. Its when it gets all petty and snide, thats when its gone beyond purpose.

This is also applicable to many other topics, ranging from *twitch* Health and Safety, to environmentalism, to the legal system and 'yuman rites'. I say the sooner we call bullshit on all this crap, and get it sorted out properly in the first place, the better.

Right, not gonna rant anymore. Where's my damn coffee...

To be honest, 80% of the people I've heard using this argument are doing it to cover up their own racism and/or counter something perfectly reasonable (health insurance or something, I never said they were rational). The rest are usually pretty much justified though, I've seen my share of equality loons.

I'm from Australia, the land of "I'm not racist but..." *coughyesyouarecough* Man am I sick of this.

Oh trust me, in I'm no racist. If I was, I wouldnt last long in my job, considering all the different people of various ethnicities we employ. No, I'm just pissed off with the people who seem to be able to find problems in places where there may not actually have been a problem. Such as people getting all pissy over nicknames and things that have been used for years and years. Even our own born and bred Irishman at the depot prefers being called Paddy. But to some people with no sense of humour or cameraderie, that is deeply offensive. But only to them.

Oh, and I'm from the UK. And I have to put up with stuff like that on a daily basis by management who are scared people will sue the company left right and center if they fall over of get called a name. One of the quickest ways to stall all this? Get rid of all those parasitic 'No-win No-Fee' companies who make it too easy to put in a claim for tripping over because you didnt watch where you were going.

Ok, now for the people who have NO idea of what the NHS is, and how it works. At the simple, even-a-beanie-baby-could-understand-this level, its a system where we ALL contribute to healthcare in the form on National Insurance, which enables us ALL to call on the healthcare system when we need it. So yes, its not 'Free' as some think, but its available to all and anyone who needs it. You dont get turned away for not having insurance. You dont get charged for the ambulance ride, and you dont get overprescribed crap medication because the doctors make more money from it.

But let me reiterate, for the slow people. ITS THERE WHEN WE NEED IT. We ALL pay for it, we can ALL use it. Thats the premise, yes? If you still have trouble understanding, then its ok. No-one is asking you to come use it, and to be frank, we'd rather you didnt anyway.

Not unless you want to pay to use it ;O)
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Razzie
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THe NHS is a bloated monstrosity of a black hole of corruption. It is a badly managed, inefficient and hateful system. It loses billions of pounds on poorly planned activities and has enough middle management (who DO NO MEDICINE) to repopulate the Sahara.

It's also one of the most successful healthcare systems in the world. Swings and roundabouts, ya know?
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Zakarius
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Without the proper procedures, how can we hope to cause chaos?
[ * ]
Well, there is that. But then again, its a system that was designed at the end of the last world war to cope with a population that was rather much smaller than we have currently, and hasnt seen enough investment and care taken of it as everything grew around it. Coupled with the ridiculously large middle management quota, and the fact that eevry bloody government seems to cut funding each and every time, its not quite as flashy and showy as it once was.

Still, it DOES work, and the premise behind it is a noble one. Most detractors slag it off because it doesnt make money, which is the very antithesis of The American Dream(tm)©.

So yes, as you say, swings and roundabouts. With a few more slides and see-saws, it could work as a rather nice playpark, what do you think?
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Sabre_Justice
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And the people complaining about 'Death Panels' are wonderfully ignorant of the fact that private insurance companies already do this- they will find whatever excuse is necessary to avoid having to pay, including withholding health care from someone likely to die anyway.

We complain about it all the time but America's system is the one we outright mock.
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Pixellated
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Being responsible
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csadn,Aug 28 2009
07:40 AM
Hence, Socialized Medicine (read: Death Panels)

The one saving grace? Mosin-Nagants are $99 at local sporting-goods stores -- as
is everything else needed to equip an insurgency.

What little respect I might have ever held for you has disappeared through that single post. I second East, you can fuck right off back to comparing cockguns sizes your NRA meeting.

You've just proven once and for all that you've got no mind for yourself: you base your opinion on what FOX and other Republican biased news sources tell you, rather than looking at the situation as a whole. Here's a hint: Republicans are still bitter about not running the country any more, so pretty much anything you hear about the current government from them will be sorely and unfairly biased against them (they frankly know they're broadcasting utter lies), in the hope of turning the population who still lack the brains to know what's actually good for themselves against whatever Obama says.

The thing that pisses a lot of people off is that this blatantly off tactic is working. Well done, you're living proof of that.
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Twib
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I voted for obama, do not watch fox... and STILL have issues with his plans.

the fact my mother is an RN might have to do with it though.
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Pixellated
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DanThe57,Aug 28 2009
04:42 PM
I voted for obama, do not watch fox... and STILL have issues with his plans.

That's fair enough, my argument wasn't about the actual reform of the healthcare system, everyone's got different views on that, in that in itself is healthy for a reform, you need to debate both sides. What I'm talking about is the strategy of the opposition, especially their influence on the media in general.

The article that stated that "people such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have a chance in the UK, where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless" made everyone laugh, for the sheer stupidity (and somewhat desperation?).
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Korvaz
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The problem with the NHS is the management. I have several family members in the NHS, working as nurses. They're overworked, underpaid for what they do, and have too little staff to do the job. Meanwhile the middle managers are busy boffing that drugs rep who brought them a fancy pen and a brushed metal clock so they can get a payoff from said company for using their product. Meanwhile, the actual doctors and nurses face budget cuts, reorganisations, layoffs and a quite frankly farcial IT system so the management can fatten themselves up nicely, then bugger off in a company jag.

As for the death panel bit? you can just climb a wall of dicks.
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Pixellated
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Korvaz,Aug 28 2009
05:05 PM
The problem with the NHS is the management. I have several family members in the NHS, working as nurses. They're overworked, underpaid for what they do, and have too little staff to do the job. Meanwhile the middle managers are busy boffing that drugs rep who brought them a fancy pen and a brushed metal clock so they can get a payoff from said company for using their product. Meanwhile, the actual doctors and nurses face budget cuts, reorganisations, layoffs and a quite frankly farcial IT system so the management can fatten themselves up nicely, then bugger off in a company jag.

I know a lot of guys who've graduated from Uni round here in medicine, and they haven't had many issues with management, or being overworked; I guess that's because they went straight into North Staffs as their placement, then their job.

That'll be the good thing about working it from the ground up, though: there's already the NHS to advise and know what to not do when you're making a free healthcare system.
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flyboy254
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Keep in mind a lot of the hate also comes from the wording reguarding the mentally disabled. A friend of mine with autistic children is absolutely livid at some of the suggestions in the plan.

As for the conservative hate, a lot comes from the Reagan-era "I'm from the government..." belief.
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HunteRS
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flyboy254,Aug 28 2009
04:32 PM
Keep in mind a lot of the hate also comes from the wording reguarding the mentally disabled. A friend of mine with autistic children is absolutely livid at some of the suggestions in the plan.

As for the conservative hate, a lot comes from the Reagan-era "I'm from the government..." belief.

I do agree-the wording on that was a little...poor.
But it doesn't lead to Aushwitz style 'defective/inferior, no use to mankind' style Nazi-ism.

Really the NHS has 1 problem. Beauracracy. That and our governments cock sucking love of PFI/PPP. These aside the system provides great care to the population either 100% free or at a very small price of a presciption charge-and those who need it most get them free.

Csadn-I have grow up with this system all my life so I can't tell you how it works from your side with Privatised health insurance. But are you really telling me the 2 teir system of the rich paying through the nose for health care while the por schlub along in Free clinic is better? Or morally right? Remember it's the socialist Trade Unions who got a minimum wage, standard working week and helped curb the blatant lack of safety in most jobs. Or would you prefer to work long hours, for a pittance in unsafe conditions?
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Hercule Pyro
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You've done some terrible things, Mister Harry
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HunterS, if you want a very rough idea of how the American system works, look at the NHS dental service. You know, the one part that's a true farce? The one that costs at least £15 for a five minute checkup, and sometimes as a days wages for a filling?

Yeah, if you're swimming in a sea of cash and have health insurance that you know will cough up when you're in the shit, you're alright. Last time I checked more Americans than the enitre population of the United Kingdom and the Republic of Eire combined aren't in that blessed situation.

I'm loathe to drag my own experiences into the matter, especially regarding my family. But whilst the NHS is a post-war nightmare of beaurcracy and middle-management, it's leagues ahead of the US system. And what tickles me to no end is that whilst both France and the US spend the same amount on healthcare, one nation is considered by the WHO to have the best standard of healthcare on the face of the planet, and one is considered to be positively third-world. Guess which is which.
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Sabre_Justice
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I read a political cartoon somewhere that the problems with NHS in the US stem from a lack of good branding.

Instead of 'Public Option', let's call it, say, 'Patriot Care'. How can you let France have better healthcare than you?
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csadn
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OK, one more attempt at Sarcasm fails:

1) The "death panel" thing was meant as sarcasm; my fault for not making this more
apparent.

However, since you asked:

Short form on Gov't-Run Health-Care over here is "if state-run industries work so
well, why's the Soviet Union out of business?".

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-3200 (full text of bill)

Tho' not even most of the folks voting on it have read it, apparently:
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/arti...=51610&print=on

http://www.lc.org/media/9980/images/brch_l...care_080909.pdf
(Includes some, ah, pointed remarks re Britain's national health service.)

http://www.lc.org/media/9980/attachments/h...bama_072909.pdf
(Pretty-much anywhere it says "health care rationed" is short for "We wanna decide
who lives and who dies".)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPADFNKDhGM (Milton Friedman, who knows a
load more than everyone on this forum, myself included, combined on the topic)

And if US health care sucks so badly, why is it Canadians come down here to get
major surgeries done?

2) It is possible to get everything -- from weapons down to culinary utensils -- from
a sporting-goods store over here, and for cheap. The mention of the Mosin was
meant as Irony -- this thing was originally created by the *Imperial* Russian arms-
makers, which means some of the rifles have been around longer than the 70+
years the "glorious workers' republic" lasted. (I had to do this for a project; it was
frightening even to a military-history major how easily one could equip an infantry
force OTC.)

3) I'm conservative, but I have no truck with a brain-dead Jesus-freak like Palin,
or the idiots who put her up to the job.

4) In the end -- does anyone here seriously think anything said here really amounts
to a hill of beans in the Real World?
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HunteRS
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If privately run industries work so well why's the economy in the shitter?
And why does America have a worse infant mortality rate than Guam?

Also The Liberty Counsel? Aren't they the nuts who threatened a library with legal action for issuing certificates for Harry Potter books because it glorified witchcraft?
Sounds like a group of OldCons who have some legal clout wishing to go back to the days we cold shoot those dastardly Redskins. Tbh I have as much respect for these cranks as I do Fred Phelp's brood.
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Hercule Pyro
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To be honest, without even clicking that link, even if it was from the most neutral organisation in the world (And if you think a group with a name like the "Liberty Counsel" is, check their Wikipedia entry - Hardly the most neutral group to comment on socialised healthcare, being a pack of psychotic god-botherers), I can tell you now that yes, the NHS is riddled with flaws. It's remained practically unchanged for the most part since it was founded. Yes, it's riddled with middle managers, yes it splurged far too much money on a complete failure of an IT scheme, yes the current obsession with targets has caused problems with care...

But it's still leagues better against the non-system that "works" in the USA. If it was such an evil, socialist system that systemaically butchered retarded children, why do immigrants from half the world fight tooth and nail, giving up everything, just to be able to use it?
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