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My gripe with Sonic; Shouldn't he age like wine? Better?
Topic Started: Dec 14 2004, 11:57 AM (1,156 Views)
XeroHedgehog
Err...I don't go here no more
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Evolution of Sonic

Sonic 1: This is THE best game ever!
Sonic 2: This is THE best ga-hey, stop following me! AI!
Sonic 3: This is THE be-HOLY SHIT, a red thing!
Sonic Mini-Games: Uh?
S&K: This is TH-HOLY SHIT, another red thing!
Sonic 3D Blast: This...is...THE BEST GAME! On Saturn.
(no)
Sonic Adventure: Dude...what the fuck?
Sonic Adventure 2: Dude...what the hell?
Sonic Heroes: FOR THE ROYALTY! BURN, VERMIN, BURN! *blatant EN rip-off*

What SEGA needs to do is make a PURE 3-D remake of the classic Sonic games (Sonic 1-3&K) and tie them together with a COMMON STORY that doesn't make Sonic look like a DUDE!

And then make remixes of all the classic tracks they havn't remade yet.

Then SEGA will have my respect.
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Master hunter
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Sad, Sad Bastard
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There's many factors to consider.

1) YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARDS GAMES - These days you're probably highly critical of your games, back then maybe you weren't

2) THE WORLD - The Early Sonic's had very little plot. There was also no speech in the games. As such there were many ways to interpret Sonic. Just look at how many different universes of Sonic there are, Archie, Fleetway, SatAM, AoSTH, Underground, Anime, etc. Each are completely different from each other. No Doubt there are things ST have done that differ from how you saw the world then.

3) 2D vs 3D - a Tricky one this. Experience seems to point to 2D > 3D. However then you take into account the Advance games and it opens up completely. Can you say that any of the Advance games are better than Adventure 2?

4) FRESHNESS - During the classic years they were fresh and unique. The same feeling of speed and adrenaline you get from any sonic game would've been more intense early on. Now it's a case of been there done that.

5) THE COMPETITION - Many would consider Mario Sunshine a better game than any of the 3D Sonic's. I don't, I see it as different. Mario sunshine (and in turn many platformers) have been about exploration, Sonic's always been about Speed. The 3D games have done this well, but if you expect Sonic to play like Mario you'll be very disappointed each time.

I don't think a full 3D-Remake of the classics will be as good as the classics. A good point was raised on another forum, Height is a huge problem in 3D. A lot of the classics secrets were scattered across different heights. However you knew the end was always to the right, no matter how high you were.
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Ashley Marsh
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Oh for crying out loud!
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I'm not going to post my views on what I'd do with the next Sonic game as I will prattle on for hours but I will say this, the games industry is very different to what it used to be. There is more competition today then there was 10 years ago and things just change. All good things come to an end and Sonic won't last forever, so try and enjoy what Sonic Team do. If you can't, that's a shame. A full 3D remake of the classics would just ruin them. I still think there can be a great 3D Sonic game but as I said, I don't want to prattle on for hours about what I'd do with the next Sonic game. Another time perhaps.
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Blitz
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A Twat...according to lothar.
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i think (and will be roasted for this) that sonic heroes was onto the right idea. except...they jumped the gun and had teams of 3 instead of the much more fluid 2.

think about it. Bring back just sonic and tails and the change between the two characters wont be as frustrating as it was in heroes and it allows for more diversity in game styles.

sonic + tails = speed + flight

Knuckles + Espio = Strength + stealth (or whoever you want with knuckles)

Shadow + Omega =Speed + shoot em up


and so on. the fact there are only two characters allow the change over to be easier.

sadly the people who did crash bandicoot copped onto this before sonic team could correct their oversight. but i dont know what the game is like, all i know is that its easy to change between the two characters heh.


Personnally i think (and will be roasted even more for this) that the sonic franchise is ripe to be the first massive multiplayer platformer which in turn would be the first massive multiplayer exclusive to consoles which dont require an extra keyboard and insane knowledge of rpg numbers etc.

i actually have it all worked out on a notepad here beside some of my scripts right down to the control system using an x-box controller, the levels and how they work. Was intending on typing it all up at some point but work currently has the better of me.

p.s Christmas Nights with sonic is best sonic game on saturn. Also personnally i think sonic's best was sonic 3 & Knuckles. Sonic 1 is great but short lived and in some ways unrewarding. Sonic 2 gives that reward but its level design is too short. Sonic 3 gives the perfect level balance.


also on the sonic storylines. Go to Sonic cult they explain the origins of sonic's storylines (He had none) hence his original appeal (in my opinion) comes from the players projecting their own character onto sonic.
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Lothar Hex
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Illogical
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Sonic 1 to Sonic 3 and Knuckles good.

Everything else LOAD OF FUCKING SHITE.
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Gyser
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Waiting For Godot
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XeroHedgehog,Dec 14 2004
11:57 AM
What SEGA needs to do is make a PURE 3-D remake of the classic Sonic games (Sonic 1-3&K) and tie them together with a COMMON STORY that doesn't make Sonic look like a DUDE!

I laugh at all the people that actually use the word dude...


Reason? It's a slang word for a 'Camels' Penis'.
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Darkshot
BioHazard XD
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Lothar Hex,Dec 15 2004
09:12 AM
Sonic 1 to Sonic 3 and Knuckles good.

Everything else LOAD OF FUCKING SHITE.

i agree.the older 2D games were better because they focused on the main reason of sonic...SPEED. i mean come on! WTF does fishing have to do with anything?!(Sonic Adventure)
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X-plosives
Unregistered

Hmph..hate to say this to myself, but i agree too, well because the 3D games does make Sonic run slow, its not as fast as the 2D sonic games. And true...What the hell does FISHING has too do in Sonic Adventure.
PLUS!!! You can't become supersonic in any levels anymore like the Sonic 1 to Sonic 3 and Knuckles. And whatever happen to the Super Emeralds that makes Sonic and Knuckles hyper (um...im unsure about how they go hyper) Well i guess i would agree to Xerohedgehog about remaking the Sonic classic games into 3D. It would be great to play the classics in 3D i guess...
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Blitz
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A Twat...according to lothar.
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offtopic yet somehow ontopic...


did anyone here ever play chaotix?

it was the worse sonic game i have played by far (even though it was knuckles not sonic) anyway the idea they had in chaotix was that the two characters were linked together by these link rings, it was to improve 2player which before chaotix had sonic leaving tails behind if he ran off.

In 2d it was crap because small screen, limited space so ithe rubber pulling back together elements of these rings pissed everyone off.

So what was my point? oh yes. I think Sonic Team should take another shot at this because in 3d all the problems with the rings go away infact its a great way to bring 2player sonic co-op fun into the 3d games.

anyway back on topic.

ashely has the right idea by saying the games industry has changed. Redoing the original sonic games in 3d will bring a host of problems and the market they are appealing to is us old sonic fans.

The reason for the FISHING and other crap ideas in the adventure games was sonic team trying to adapt to the new games industry (Nights got burned because it was still at the end of the day a 2d point-em-up game). When that flopped thy came up with the sonic heroes idea. Now it seems that has flopped aswell.

Go with the original style games but while that will please present fans it will proove difficult to bring in new blood which is the whole marketing sense behind the industry.

i gotta get back to work *sigh*
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Ashley Marsh
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Oh for crying out loud!
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X-plosives,Dec 21 2004
03:54 AM
Well i guess i would agree to Xerohedgehog about remaking the Sonic classic games into 3D. It would be great to play the classics in 3D i guess...

No it wouldn't. If the classics were remade, they would be rubbish. They would ruin the originals because of everything SonicTeam would add to it.

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did anyone here ever play chaotix?

I never had a 32X. I'd still want to play it even if it is rubbish, cos it's a Sonic game I haven't played. It's the same with Sonic CD. If they did have another go at it but in 3D, it would be like Sonic Advance 3.

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ashely has the right idea by saying the games industry has changed. Redoing the original sonic games in 3d will bring a host of problems and the market they are appealing to is us old sonic fans.

According to an old school teacher of mine, I’m always right. :P
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Master hunter
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The problem is in 2D you have height to offer multiple routes that you could easily get between. In 3D it would be hard to replicate that and still keep the adrenaline rush going. Now Sonic's levels are mainly route based, with the focus being getting through quickly and efficiently. The true challenge of the 3D titles is getting all A's because it takes mastering every levels and maximising points with techniques.

Unfortunately the Adventure series varies the gameplay. While it does have classic Sonic it's also merged Shooting, Explorative platforming (Hunting), Fishing (which I'm glad they took out), and run away from an unbeatable machine. Vary the gameplay or keep to one style that doesn't really work in 3D? Touch call.

Heroes problem is that it's dull. Enemies just get stronger armour and attacks as you progress. It's also hard to get right. Power punches often send you off in a random direction. It also doesn't get you to think by practically telling you what to do. However I don't mind that if the challenge is in doing it. Thinking too much in sonic is bad as it slows down the gameplay and wrecks the formula. Sonic's about quick wits and reflexes.

The Advance titles are quite well done, I think the problem lies in the special stages and leaps of faith. Advance 2 is one of the worst Sonic's IMO due to those SP rings and leaps into the unknown. Advance 1 had too little special springs. You often had to replay a level loads of times just to do the special stages loads of times. Advance 3 got it right, though I would prefer the classic giant rings method myself.

Battle's problem is that it's too ambitious. It has more functions that what you can comfortably use. 3 Functions assigned to one button, come on ST what were you thinking. The 2D/3D merge could've been better. Basically I think it would've worked better on another more powerful format. It could also do with a good tutorial mode.

On another note, Heroes didn't flop. On the contrary it had very high sales, stayed in the top 20 for ages then jumped straight to number 1 in the budget chart. No doubt there will be a Heroes 2.
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Hercule Pyro
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You've done some terrible things, Mister Harry
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Master hunter,Dec 21 2004
10:56 PM
On another note, Heroes didn't flop. On the contrary it had very high sales, stayed in the top 20 for ages then jumped straight to number 1 in the budget chart. No doubt there will be a Heroes 2.

Doesn't mean it was any good. There have been, what? 5 Tomb Raider games? A bajillion Medal of Honours? 12 Final Fantasys? It just means it was hyped.
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Lothar Hex
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Illogical
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Blitz,Dec 21 2004
05:58 AM
offtopic yet somehow ontopic...


did anyone here ever play chaotix?

it was the worse sonic game i have played by far (even though it was knuckles not sonic) anyway the idea they had in chaotix was that the two characters were linked together by these link rings, it was to improve 2player which before chaotix had sonic leaving tails behind if he ran off.

In 2d it was crap because small screen, limited space so ithe rubber pulling back together elements of these rings pissed everyone off.

So what was my point? oh yes. I think Sonic Team should take another shot at this because in 3d all the problems with the rings go away infact its a great way to bring 2player sonic co-op fun into the 3d games.

So your saying if you couldn't control the rings in 2 dimensions you'd be able to do it in 3?

Someone hasn't thought this through (or knows what the D in 2/3D means probably)
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Ashley Marsh
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Oh for crying out loud!
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Grand Master Eastwood,Dec 22 2004
10:16 AM
Master hunter,Dec 21 2004
10:56 PM
On another note, Heroes didn't flop. On the contrary it had very high sales, stayed in the top 20 for ages then jumped straight to number 1 in the budget chart. No doubt there will be a Heroes 2.

Doesn't mean it was any good. There have been, what? 5 Tomb Raider games? A bajillion Medal of Honours? 12 Final Fantasys? It just means it was hyped.

Sonic Heroes was a good game, just not a good Sonic game. <_<
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Master hunter
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A flop by definition is one of low sales not low quality. If you have high sales of a product you are unlikely to change it. Look at EA, they get high sales but hardly produce anything of worth. If Goldeneye Rogue agent is anything to go by it doesn't look as if they take notice of reviews either.
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Hercule Pyro
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You've done some terrible things, Mister Harry
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Never said it was a sales flop. But everyone I know who bought it (Bar Sonic Team fanboys) have taken it back or traded it in. Not the sign of a good game.
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Lothar Hex
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Illogical
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Master Hunter, thats bullshit. Something can be a flop for other reasons than crap sales.

Show me this "definition" of yours.
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Ashley Marsh
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Oh for crying out loud!
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Master hunter,Dec 22 2004
03:42 PM
If you have high sales of a product you are unlikely to change it.

It's a shame that's true with Sonic. I wish SonicTeam would listen to the fans, or at least the fans that would be helpful to the series.
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Hercule Pyro
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You've done some terrible things, Mister Harry
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Ashley Marsh,Dec 22 2004
03:51 PM
It's a shame that's true with Sonic. I wish SonicTeam would listen to the fans, or at least the fans that would be helpful to the series.

Ah, but who would that be?

My personal view is to let the series lie for a few years. Come back with a new team, with a fresh take on it. I'd sooner have that than a constant stream of shite.
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Ashley Marsh
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Oh for crying out loud!
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Fans that love the classic games. Post Sonic Adventure Sonic fans would bombard a new Sonic game with their own characters and keep Shadow, Rouge and the like in it. Sonic, Tails and Knuckles are the best and they work far better together for a game than all the others. But as I said before, I really don't want to go on about what I'd do.

If ST spent more time on a game it would be better. But I wouldn't hold my breathe.
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Master hunter
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Sad, Sad Bastard
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I've always thought a flop was based on how a developer would see the success of their game. Yes SH wasn't that great a game, but like I said sales were high so no doubt they'd make Heroes 2. Though it'll be delayed after EA bought Renderware.

Personally I think they'd heading in the right direction, they just haven't figured what needs to stay and what needs to go.

It doesn't need the hunting, shooting, etc stages. Stick with Racing only
The plots should be more adventure 2.
The number of levels/extras should be better or at least equal to Adventure 2. They need to add multiple routes to levels that you can easily move between. If you can't get it to work in 3D go back to 2D.
Special stages should stay, although access to them shouldn't be unique per game. Stick with the giant gold rings.
Do not add new characters, there's enough already.
Get rid of Chaotix and Big.
Get Nancy Cartwright to do the voice of Tails. She's the only one I trust.
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Ashley Marsh
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Oh for crying out loud!
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Master hunter,Dec 22 2004
11:55 PM
Personally I think they'd heading in the right direction, they just haven't figured what needs to stay and what needs to go.

Get rid of Chaotix and Big.

Get Nancy Cartwright to do the voice of Tails. She's the only one I trust.

Naka said that Sonic Adventure would start taking Sonic back to his roots. That was, what 5-6 years ago or something, and now you say they are starting to get back on the right track. It's going to be awhile before the Sonic game we all want, will be made.

Shadow and Rouge can go to.

I don't think Nancy Cartwright can/would do Tails. I don't know what kind of voices she can do but I doubt if she could get Tails right.
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Darkshot
BioHazard XD
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Ashley Marsh,Dec 23 2004
06:58 PM
Shadow and Rouge can go to.


i can agree with you when you said that Rouge should go because she wasnt really a nessesary character, but i think Shadow isnt that bad of a character.
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Pyro
I have a small willy :(
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I thought Shadow was cool actually i dont know what everyone's deal with him is i think he's cooler than Sonic
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X-plosives
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Heh... He's the only one that gives Sonic a lot of challenge. So he should stay.
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