SUMMER

Angkar: Wet season. Precipitation is common during the late afternoon and evening hours. Vegetation grows significantly during the summer, but flooding is a danger due to the monsoons that ravage the country. The rainforest sees evenly distributed rainfall throughout the season.

Ashoka: Desert: Extremely hot and dry. Violent, heavy downpours following long dryspells. Jungle: Hot and humid with frequent, violent rainstorms.

Morrim: Relatively hot and dry, but with a chance of thunderstorms from time to time. The heat may cause forest fires.

Soto: Hot and humid, tree cover is dense while ground growth is restricted. Thunderstorms see the most amount of rainfall during the season, and it can be very windy. On occasion, there are flash floods that can destroy homes and farms built on flood plains.

ANNOUNCEMENTS

March 30th, 2018 As you might have noticed, Elenlond has changed hands and is now under new management! If you have any questions, please direct them to DaringRaven! As for the rest of the announcements, including a season change, you can find them over here at the following link!

January 16, 2018 As you might have noticed, Elenlond has a new skin, all thanks to Mel! Don't forget to check out the new OTMs as well!

December 2, 2017 Winter has settled on Elenlond, bringing sleep for some and new life for others.

September 26, 2017 With the belated arrival of autumn come some interesting developments: new OTMs, a Town Crier and the release of the Elly Awards winners!

July 14, 2017 After a bit of forum clean-up, Elly Awards season has arrived! Head on over to make your nominations!

May 31, 2017 Summer has arrived and so has activity check! That's not all though – we also have some new OTMs for you and some staff changes!


WHAT IS ELENLOND?

Elenlond is an original free-form medieval fantasy RPG set on the continent of Soare and the Scattered Isles, which are located to the south in the Sea of Diverging Waters. The four chief nations of the western side of the world—Ashoka in northern Soare, Soto in western Soare, Morrim in eastern Soare, and Angkar, the largest of the Scattered Isles—continue to experience growth and prosperity since the fall of the Mianorite gods, although power struggles within the countries—or outside of them—continue to ensue.


QUICK TIDBITS

  • We accept any member who wants to RP here;
  • We are an intermediate-level RPG;
  • We have been open since June 2004;
  • Elly's layouts work best in Chrome, Firefox, Safari, and Opera. It is not optimized for IE.

  • CURRENT EVENTS

    Angkar: To honour the reinvigoration of the ancient city of Mondrágon, the majestic Queen Eulalia has permitted the opening of a Coliseum where people from around the world and all walks of life can test their combat skills against one another. Many have already done battle in search of honour, glory, prizes and money.

    Ashoka: In an otherwise peaceful times, Ashokans are beset with the relatively minor inconveniences of wandering undead and occasionally-aggressive giant rock worms. There has also been some controversy over the recent re-legalisation of human sacrifice.

    Morrim: Rumour has it that Emperor Leofric de Hollemark is mustering forces for a war. Though the threat from Soto’s forests has passed, the forces previously employed in watching the forest now linger at the border. Rumours also circulate of a small group that has been dispatched to make contact with the tribes of the Do’suul Mountains.

    Soto: The Sotoans have defeated the fey and liberated themselves from Méadaigh’s oppression! Preliminary efforts have been made at rebuilding the city of Madrid, which had been captured at the beginning of the war. However, the Sotoans are hindered from recovery famine. Méadaigh’s magic caused summer to persist in the Erth’netora Forest through the winter. Her power has been withdrawn and the plants die as if preparing for winter – even though it is now summer. The Sotoans must sustain off what food they can get, what creatures they can kill and what can be imported into the city from Morrim and Angkar.

    For a fuller description of our most recent events, check out our most recent edition of The Town Crier!

    daringraven
    Administrator
    Qayin Graves
    SHADOW
    Supporting Admin.

    Kestrel Sumner (Shadow)
    Kindle Blackheath
    Orion de Lacey
    Sinadryn Arsydian
    Welcome to our home, a world in which anything can happen. From sprawling deserts and vast forests to massive volcanoes and luscious hot springs, Soare and the Scattered Isles are beautiful places just waiting to be explored. For the brave and the bold or the cautious and the wary, creatures of all kinds roam the earth, looking for adventure or for a place to call their own. Species of all kinds - the well-known and the unknown - thrive here, though not always in harmony.

    Elenlond is an original medieval fantasy RPG with a world that's as broad as it is unique. Calling on characters of all kinds, the sky's the limit in a world where boundaries are blurred and the imagination runs rampant. Restrictions are limited and members are encouraged to embrace their creativity, to see where they can go and what they can do. It's no longer just text on a page - it becomes real.

    Enter Our World

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    CURRENT EVENTS/JUICY DELICIOUS GOSSIP!
    Topic Started: Jan 16 2015, 12:37 PM (1,256 Views)
    Phaedrus
    Member Avatar
    Thus conscience does make cowards of us all/ And thus the native hue of resolution/ Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought.


    Quote:
     
    Also, having some separate place to advertise quest threads would mean one more place to check when you're hunting down threads, which is something of an inconvenience. This small distinction between "open thread" and "quest thread" could also be confusing to new members. Again, it comes off as very redundant. The only thing I can think of as an upside to having a separate place for quests is that, if it's a forum, then you can negotiate with people about your thread in the open rather than asking that people PM you...which you could probably just do in the thread request board if that's your jam.




    hm. i guess i was a bit unclear on this, and i'm sorry. D:

    i wasn't imagining an entirely separate forum for quests at all -- admittedly, i was imagining a single thread (likely pinned in the existing Thread Request forum). the first post would be a master post in the style of a bulletin board. it would contain blurbs of all the characters currently looking for jobs, hiring others, etc, or other specific, goal-oriented requests. it would serve as an easy way to skim what's in demand and have threads based on that.

    the content would be generated by members and edited into the master post by staff.

    below the master post would be requests by members. they'd post something formatted like "my character [NAME] is looking for an assassin!" and link to their character's profile or a pm system, etc. OR alternatively, it could link to an existing thread IN the thread request forum with more detailed information about a specific plot. again, the information in the master post is a short, succinct description; it is not a plotting board itself, just like the open threads thread is meant for advertising, not plotting.

    think of it like an index or directory. you could go slugging through pages to find a thread request/character that might be relevant to you, or you can just go to the index and see if it has what you need. i don't think it's redundant...? i think it's just a good way to make existing information more accessible.

    ALSO: a link to this could easily be added to the sidebar. i'm thinking Latest Posts > Quests would make the most sense.

    disclaimer: if the word "quest" is too loaded or confusing, it could easily be called Personals or Job Requests or i dunno. u~u

    the reason i propose this is because we've got an in-group going on. it's tough for new members to get in on character plots/know what's going on between characters when most of us discuss that on skype. soo if there's an easy way for newer people to find what characters need in a single thread, power to em.

    otherwise, how the hell do they know where to start, or who to contact? xD we're not posting in the thread request board, so...


    TL;DR what i'm proposing:

    Seasonal Gossip Bulletin Thread: yes.
    "Quest"/Personals/Index Thread: yes.


    Separate forum for quests: nooooooo. D;
    Mandatory Staff-Generated DM Quests: sweet lordy no. DD;
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    Aniketos
    Member Avatar
    Unter friedlichen Umständen fällt der kriegerische Mensch über sich selber her.

    All I was looking for was a clear explanation as to what this thing was. I wasn't clear what the idea was, so yeah, all my long-winded arguments were against the wrong thing. I apologise for misconstruing things wherever I did. Next time I will ask for clarifications first.

    Crow, what you've described makes a lot more sense and sounds good to me. I think "quests" is probably the wrong term, as you've suggested, but I can't think of what would be good off the top of my head. Personals could do. May require some meditation. It could probably be divided into two parts: people for hire and people seeking something.

    I have some questions.

    1. Regarding the clean-up of the thread: It seems like a lot of effort to check up on everyone and see if their listing still stands; the best thing might be to encourage people to PM us when something is filled and then, with the clean-up following an activity check, erase the whole thing and start anew.

    2. There will probably need to be a distinction between what could be put in this thread and what should be put up in the Thread Requests forum/Plots forum. It seems that engagements lasting only one thread (such as the one that Kist had, needing to be rescued) should not go into this index. The flavour of this seems to be longterm engagements such as employment or companionship or a general premise for a character, eg. Jade is a blacksmith and can make weapons.

    I also would like to know where we stand on the Current Events thing? I realise that, should we go ahead with this second idea, the "personals" section I added in my thingo would be removed, but else wise, what shall we do with it?
    Edited by Aniketos, Jan 18 2015, 10:17 PM.
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    Phaedrus
    Member Avatar
    Thus conscience does make cowards of us all/ And thus the native hue of resolution/ Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought.

    Quote:
     
    Crow, what you've described makes a lot more sense and sounds good to me. I think "quests" is probably the wrong term, as you've suggested, but I can't think of what would be good off the top of my head. Personals could do. May require some meditation. It could probably be divided into two parts: people for hire and people seeking something.



    ahh, yeah. D: quests makes it seem like an mmo or something with a rewards system, which.. it isn’t. shadow nailed it, really:

    Quote:
     
    •Quest threads: A place for threads that require a specific character, have a specific intent/purpose, or a specific goal in mind. Could be used to specify the max number of adventurers, the end game, etc.



    right-o!

    Quote:
     
    1. Regarding the clean-up of the thread: It seems like a lot of effort to check up on everyone and see if their listing still stands; the best thing might be to encourage people to PM us when something is filled and then, with the clean-up following an activity check, erase the whole thing and start anew.


    i thought of that and was wondering about it myself. : S i think pming would be the best thing — instructions on how to use the thread could be written atop the master post, along with any copy-paste boxes for formatting, etc. but yeah, it’s definitely something that would be temporary and change all the time.

    that’s why i was thinking it’d be separate from the current events thread. it would be too much work to edit the personals separated by country, and keep track of what’s filled and what isn’t. i was thinking the current events thread would be cleared seasonally and have fresh information with each season (except for long-term, world-wide things like sovereign changes, which might stay up all year, or however long the staff deem it’s relevant).

    as far as current events go — i think it can still stand alone! c: i was imagining it’d be a thread posted seasonally and advertised with the seasonal change. however, it’d be updated throughout the season as things occur. when the season is over, it could be archived for posterity and a new one would be made, etc.

    the caveat to this is that—if it were linked in the sidebar—you’d have to constantly update that link… or you could simply clear the post every season and start over, but i think archiving would be nice.

    i was thinking the current events thread would be used to give threads more impact, bring attention to what has happened (in-character) in different parts of the world, provide flavor like trends, etc. i think you could also keep up a “most wanted” section for notorious characters that should be recognized world-wide or regionally, like tekun and andromalius. again, it’s for the ease of new members who might not recognize notorious characters, or who aren’t caught up on current threads.

    it’s world-building, basically. lets people know what’s going on and gives them a better conception of local events in each region. kind of like a summary of major events that have happened or are ongoing. i think it’ll reward impactful threads, too.


    TL;DR

    Quest Thread -- more of a directory; constantly changing as "quests" are taken. cleared entirely per activity check.
    Current Events Thread -- worldbuilding info based on threads or staff-generated flavor text, cleared seasonally.
    Edited by Phaedrus, Jan 18 2015, 10:32 PM.
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    Aniketos
    Member Avatar
    Unter friedlichen Umständen fällt der kriegerische Mensch über sich selber her.

    Okay, we have come back to the thing that trips me up and the thing that I've been arguing against this entire time. I am very much down with the idea that it would be good to have a directory of basically what characters do (such as employment) that could start threads, or requests for longterm engagements. However, I don't see any point in basically having a directory of thread requests. This is what the rest of the Thread Request forum is for. Partially, it would require that we edit out anything that gets filled (which could happen quickly). It's not a lot of work, but it's another one of those finnicky tasks that it would be nice to not have to deal with. I also believe that leaving people to use the Thread Request board encourages a sort of open-air negotiation that works very well for this site for a multitude of reasons rather than being part of a list and saying "PM me" (which some find to be a little more intimidating or uncomfortable and which gets in the way of collective brainstorming). Of course, next to no one is using the Thread Request board at this point, but that's a different story.

    Nonetheless, if this is what people want, I'll do it and see what happens. I don't see how it will help, but I'm willing to run with it if there is that much popular support for it. I suppose I must stop making an ass of myself by arguing so much over a scruple.

    One thing: I think it would be better if we asked people to post their submissions into the thread. It will be edited into the first post of the thread and the original post will be removed. Though, truly, I don't really see why we couldn't just let people post there without any compiling on our part necessarily, except for the sake of organisation. But whatever.

    I was thinking for the current events that the side bar could just link to the board where all the different issues of it are.

    What I ask now is that we be provided with the text, in code tags, for the main post of the "quest" thread, at your leisure, and that we specifically determine what we want the current events thread to look like. This is the link to Crow's envisioning, this is the link to mine (which doesn't have the most wanted actually, which should probably go under country headings like in Crow's).
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    Bast
    Member Avatar
    'He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone.../And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up, for ever and ever;'

    Quote:
     
    However, I don't see any point in basically having a directory of thread requests. This is what the rest of the Thread Request forum is for.


    Because at least one person has expressed discontent about the amount of time it takes to go through the sheer volume of information here, and often the stuff that's in there is no longer current. Putting them in the 'personals' section wouldn't be a stretch because there might only be a couple each season, which then get wiped, and if the player wanted to renew that ad, they could post the information again, the same way a newspaper or store window would.

    Sometimes, you just want to find people quickly and get into the action, and not having to spend an extra day or two browsing through all the additional, possibly outdated thread requests, and character profiles, then making a request of your own and waiting for responses, if there is something already available like that looking to be filled. And since a lot of it does now happen offsite where it's really convenient, since everyone's in the same place, having a quick 'go-to' of current 'jobs' that people may be looking for in the long term that aren't necessarily anything to do with a large plot, character or site-wise, wouldn't be a bad thing.

    I think the problem by saying 'quests' is that people are overcomplicating things. It wasn't meant to be anything in it's own forum, and not generally DM'd by staff. It was meant to be very simple, and pretty much fulfilling the same thing as a regional piece of gossip like birds in court, which could then be updated if someone wanted to take the hook. It's not damaging to the site, any more than someone not making a thread about taking parrots to court would be damaging.
    The thing about players offering jobs wasn't even the same thing, that's down to players to offer rewards or whatever.

    The saying goes 'you don't ask, you don't get.' I suppose next time I should make doubly sure we're all clear on what we're talking about because the word quest is inadequate to fulfill the needs, being so vague.

    If editing things out of a thread is something you'd rather not do, then I can do it as I stated before. All I do is move/delete/approve stuff and answer questions, and edit things into the compendium, and help with OTMs. That's not exactly taxing, and I find I spend more time browsing and doing these little things than posting in my spare time anyway.

    Anyway TL;DR
    Putting the player jobs in with the 'current events' would keep it all in one place, especially with current seasonal jobs that get wiped every season change/activity check.
    People will be checking the current events anyway, so it's a good place to find everything at once.
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    Aniketos
    Member Avatar
    Unter friedlichen Umständen fällt der kriegerische Mensch über sich selber her.

    I'm not disagreeing with you at all, Dnan. Having a directory of character jobs and stuff is exactly what I'm agreeing with. I just didn't understand it before, which is my fault for not being clearer on it. It's a good idea and makes things way easier and more compact. However, I don't think it should be part of the current events thing for the sake of avoiding clutter.

    The only element I have trouble with is the idea of using the same thread (which seems to be going in the direction a "personals" section) as a place for compiling requests for what Shadow has termed "quest threads." This seemed to be part of what Crow was suggesting. Namely, my understanding is that someone wants to have a thread about hunting down a dragon, so they would use this new thread for it. As far as I can tell, that would do just as well in the Thread Requests board and Plots board.

    I think we've all come to agree with most of what you're saying, there was just a lot of confusion about what people actually wanted from all this and what their suggestions meant.

    Again, I'm really sorry for how all this has turned out and the part I've played in it (mostly by arraying arguments before having a fuller understanding of what was going on) and I'm sorry for the toes I've stepped on; I'm just trying to figure out what is good/necessary for the site and don't mean anything personal by any of it.
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    Phaedrus
    Member Avatar
    Thus conscience does make cowards of us all/ And thus the native hue of resolution/ Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought.

    Quote:
     
    Okay, we have come back to the thing that trips me up and the thing that I've been arguing against this entire time. I am very much down with the idea that it would be good to have a directory of basically what characters do (such as employment) that could start threads, or requests for longterm engagements. However, I don't see any point in basically having a directory of thread requests.


    aye, there's the rub. p___o okie, i get it now.

    so i wasn't intending that the "quest" thread would be a directory of thread requests. it would have to fit specific criteria to be put up there. i think shadow pretty much nailed it.

    i think it would primarily be used to list long-term character jobs and services, honestly. also, it could be used to prevent clutter.

    for example, say i resurrected devin. ages ago i made a thread request entitled "mercenary for hire!" or something like that. with this "quest" thread, instead of making yet another thread in the thread request forum, i'd simply submit it to the "quest thread" with something like this:

    "Mercenary for hire!
    Devin is back and looking for work. [link to ORIGINAL REQUEST THREAD]"

    so not only could it be used for a quick and easy directory -- it could also keep duplicates of thread requests from popping up.

    as far as the npc's and all that jazz goes, i think that was a tad confusing. it would literally work in the same way as playable character quests. i don't really know how to explain it further? xD;; i guess the "quest" thread board could be organized something like this:



    Spoiler: click to toggle


    i can see how listing the monster hunting sort of threads could be redundant, but... i'm just racking my brains trying to find a way to keep them relevant and easily accessible. for example, there are sooo many cool plots/"questy" threads that got totally forgotten in the thread request. examples:

    http://s8.zetaboards.com/Elenlond/topic/8496526/1/#new

    http://s8.zetaboards.com/Elenlond/topic/8476814/1/#new


    so while it may be a bit redundant to list things already put up in thread requests, it IS a way of making info more accessible. that's the main goal. also, the issue with posts in the thread request board is that the titles often don't match up with the content, or are terribly vague. : s

    so keeping it all in a directory with succinct, clear descriptions/links to what people are looking for would be helpful -- versus a thread floating around in the request forum titled "hi, i'm new here!" that then goes on to describe a paladin looking for work.

    PS: as far as bbcode and all that jazz goes, i loved the design you had for the ic newspaper/current events thread. i think we just gotta tweak the sections in there and we'll be good. c:

    and hm... i'm not 100% sure how the quests/bulletin/whatever thread should be formatted/organized. i'll think on it, but i'm procrastinating on hw right now. xD / flails
    Edited by Phaedrus, Jan 19 2015, 10:52 AM.
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    Kestrel Sumner
    And then she was gone, her hips swinging as the knives jostled her thighs, passing by guards with her head held high, a haughty smile upon her lips.

    Oof, ok, this has become kind of heated. If it continues being heated, I will have to close it.

    It's ok guys—we're all friends here. <3 People make mistakes, get confused, etc. Especially in writing where tone is lacking. Nothing's being implemented yet, so don't worry. Please also remember that nobody's ideas are stupid or worthless and this is purely discussion and brainstorming. And when somebody disagrees with your idea or your diction choice or whatever, they aren't attacking you. It's very easy to feel attacked (I myself am guilty of that all the time), but generally nobody is trying to attack anybody. And I know we all get along well here.

    Some thoughts, based on my experience with other forums:

    We could trash the thread request forum. Honestly. It's not getting much use these days, and we seem to have more plots or short plots pop up. A lot of forums do a "Connections" place where you can post stuff about your character(s) and people can post plotting out threads with you. I'm not saying let's do that idea in its entirety because I actually kind of hate those forums, but we could amalgamate the plots forum into the thread request forum and just make it for plotting purposes. One forum, one place to post any time you're like "Man, I could really go for a random thread" or "Man, I need to start my plot with Bayou, so I should see if there's interest." When the thread request forum was created, we had the demand to support it, which was also the case with the plots forum. We really don't need both. We could even do the current events, plots/thread requests, open threads, and "Personals" master list in one place. And if people are making a plot, we can easily be like "Please add [PLOT] in front of your topic title." Or something.

    Something to keep in mind is the fact that Elly's forum layout was created back when we did the revamp, which was I don't even know how many years ago now. Six? Seven? So we can change it and update it and rearrange stuff. That's totally ok.

    Yes, I agree the forum has a lot of info for people to sift through. One of the projects we will be embarking on is to condense the country articles so that there's a TL;DR version with expanded info for people who are interested in having more. Not sure how that's being done yet, but we'll work it out. Different issue, but I know the vast amount of info is hard for people.

    First and foremost, I think whatever makes it easier for new members to get involved is of the utmost importance. So the more we can condense and make access easier, the better.

    (Pfft, Juul. MMOs are wonderful. Except I didn't feel that way until Final Fantasy XIV (sans Ragnarok Online, which I played on a private server.))

    I think people want to do an MMO-style thread, let them. But indeed, let's not make that the focus. I think questing and getting rewards, though, can be fun, so I don't want to discourage that. Which I know is not what you said, Juul, but just to make that thought known. =) Basically, give people the freedom to design their threads and whatever as they see fit.

    I think what we need right now is a condensed post of what Crow and Dnan are putting forward with bullets and such to make it super clear. If the idea in general is a good one (pretty sure it is, but there's kind of a mess of conversation happening here) and we decide to move forward with it, then we can worry about implementation afterwards. Sound good?
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    Phaedrus
    Member Avatar
    Thus conscience does make cowards of us all/ And thus the native hue of resolution/ Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought.

    i agree with shadow. : S i'm sorry that this turned into such a heated thing. i think there was quite a bit of confusion and miscommunication, and i hope it hasn't caused too much stress. i'll try to condense what exactly i'm proposing, and possible organization stuff. i'm also willing to discuss things over pm/skype/etc if there needs to be clarification.

    okay, for the sake of organization… I WILL TYPE GRAMMATICALLY CORRECT SENTENCES WUT




    1) Current Events Thread
    • Thread updated seasonally with information about IC threads that have made an impact, board-wide plots, major events (like sovereign changes), character reputations, and flavor text.

    • Like Ephie proposed, it could be styled like a faux-IC newspaper.

    • The thread would be updated if necessary throughout the season (adding new links, plot hooks, etc).

    • Content would be submitted by members and modded by staff. For example, a staff member might deem that a thread/plot hook isn't major enough to be added to the current events thread.

    • Staff will generate flavor text/background information.

    • Cleared seasonally, except for major events (like sovereign changes). Major events stay up for s long as staff deem relevant.


    ORGANIZATION (shamelessly ripped from ephie c;)




    2) Bulletin Board/"Quest" Thread
    • This is a thread pinned in the "Thread Request" forum. It could also be linked in the sidebar under "Latest Posts."

    • Functions as a directory for characters with goal-oriented thread requests or plying a specific trade.

    • Cleared entirely per activity check.

    • Members will post in this thread using a pre-made code/formatting, and it will be edited into the master post by staff for the sake of organization.


    Proposed coding:

    Code:
     
    [b]Section:[/b] (Looking For Work, Personals, etc...)
    [b]Title:[/b] Please include a clear and succinct title indicating what your character is looking for.
    [b]Description:[/b] (Please include links to character profiles or plot threads as needed. Text may be subject to minor editing.)
    [b]Preferred Method of Contact:[/b] Link to preferred method of contact (PM, specific character account, or thread).



    VERY TENTATIVE ORGANIZATION



    ... Also, for the record, you guys are waaaay better at organization than I am, so rearrange the sections as you see fit. Also, those are just some proposed locations for these threads, but do whatever makes the most sense to you guys/whatever you think will be most visible and accessible.
    Edited by Phaedrus, Jan 19 2015, 11:33 AM.
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    Aniketos
    Member Avatar
    Unter friedlichen Umständen fällt der kriegerische Mensch über sich selber her.

    All this makes a lot more sense. I think in the end my problem was with the intent and goals of the thing, and I will say that I don't expect it to change anything about the prevalence of sitting-in-a-forest/tavern threads or anything to do with that. I see that it may help to bring more plotty things into fruition. However, the reason I see most plots failing is because of a lack of commitment from the person who started it, which is not something we can change. However, we'll have to see what happens.

    I think that deleting the Thread Request board would be hasty. This is the first time I can recall seeing people not using it while there's a plenty of activity. If it's deleted, then that's one less inroad for new members. I can see the merits of using the bulletin as a way of keeping things organised.

    These organisations look good to me. We can probably fancify the current events template, just to make it fun, and we'll have to consider the name and slogan (if we want it). We will also need the text for a thread to be pinned in the subforum we make for it explaining what it is and acting as a repository for submissions. I may be able to come up with something, but I won't complain if someone gets to it first.

    We will also need a blurb on how the bulletin works, explaining what it does. I don't know how to write that, so I'll leave it to someone with a better conception of it/relationship with it.
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