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| Cleris Through A Kid's Eyes; ...This is how I saw it. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 3 2011, 03:49 PM (740 Views) | |
| Zeryll | May 3 2011, 03:49 PM Post #1 |
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T A N G L E D
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Everyone who has read my introducion knows I've been a Cleris supporter ever since I was four, and I now wanna share my point of view with you. I used to watch my brothers playing FF7 (and even tried myself, though it was WAY too hard for me - I gave the gamepad to one of my brothers everytime a fight begun :P), and I always thought Cloud and Aeris were...well, lovers. I remember clearly two scenes from the first time we played it: Cloud holding dead Aeris and laying her to the Lifestream, and Cloud reaching for Aeris' hand at the end of the game. I remember I asked, "Why Cloud is sad?" when he held Aeris' body. One of my brothers said, "It's because Aeris is gone, and she was very dear to Cloud. Like mom is to dad." (My brothers played FF7 "normally", so to them Cleris is "canon", too... They didn't even bother to think about CloTi :lol:) I became sad too, but they said that Cloud will be okay, eventually. Then the hand reach scene... I was so excited when my brother bet Sephiroth, and when Cloud reached up, I exclaimed, "IT'S AERIS! IT'S AERIS!". How disappointed I was when Tifa showed up <_< I'm a Finn, I had just learned to read, and didn't understand A WORD they were saying, but to me it was always like Cloud and Aeris were meant to be (of course my brothers occasionally told me what was going on). Though the dialogue was Greek to me, I enjoyed the game and formed my viewpoint from how they interacted and behaved. As for Tifa... I had to admit, but at first I thought she was Cloud's sister(/cousin/something-of-the-like) But definitely not a love interest. To me it just looked like very sisterly behavior. It was a little shock to me when I found out about the LT at the time I first began reading fanfiction/some forums/etc. (I believe it was something like 8 or 7 years ago...). It never had even crossed my mind! When I read forums where CloTis were discussing, I was like, "I can't believe what I'm reading..." I admit I was a bit ashamed I wasn't aware of the LT(D) until then, that Cloud could possibly be in love with Tifa Okay, so I just wanted to tell you what was FF7 like to a 4-year-old girl who didn't understand a word of English, but still loved the game. This was the impression I got back then, and to me Aeris/Cloud was as obvious pairing as Rinoa/Squall, for example. (Gah, took me ages to figure out the topic title <_< ) |
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| Anastar | May 3 2011, 05:23 PM Post #2 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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So Clerith was even obvious to a child, eh? You certainly wouldn't have any bias toward one couple or another at that age - unless your brothers had talked about who Cloud loved with you or something.I was 17 or 18 when I first played the game, but I saw it in a very similar way, Zeryll. The thought of Cloud loving Tifa never even occurred to me while I was playing the game. I thought it was obvious that Cloud loved Aerith, and I was shocked the first time I heard someone say on a forum that they thought Cloud loved Tifa. I was like, "How the hell did you get THAT idea?!?" LOL I knew that Cloud loved Aerith way before her death scene. I thought the death scene made it more obvious, but there were other scenes like when Cloud was so desperately trying to rescue Aerith after Shinra abducted her. She was the first thing on his mind after the tower collapsed, and he seemed desperate to find her. And then, the Cosmo Canyon campfire scene where he tells Aerith, "But I'm... we're here for you, right?" There were many other scenes, too, but I never thought Cloud showed that kind of affection to Tifa. But the hand reach scene was the clincher for me. The two of them reaching for one another was the most romantic scene in the game for me. The hand reach scene was as romantic as a kiss, IMO. And then, when Cloud said he wanted to meet her in the Promised Land, it meant to me that he would keep searching for her until he found her, and that he'd never be happy until he was with her again. On top of that, he was holding Tifa in his arms after rescuing her, but he was basically ignoring her. All he could think about was Aerith, and being with Aerith again. So I think you were very perceptive as a four year old child. Instead of dialogue, you could just see their love for one another through their actions. Cloud's interest was obvious to me - whenever Aerith was around, she was the first thing on his mind - and I guess you saw it the same way. I thought it was obvious that Tifa loved Cloud, but I never saw Cloud return her interest. The only love interest I ever saw for Cloud was Aerith. |
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| Zeryll | May 3 2011, 06:13 PM Post #3 |
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Heh, I certainly didn't They're all Cleris-supporters.
Thank you ~ That is the way I saw it, too.
I guess that is why I first thought Tifa is Cloud's sister (or something). Because I didn't know the dialogue, I thought she had just a strong sisterly relationship with him (Tifa often behaved like my only sister, being nurturing, settler and all :D) But it was interesting to read your "story", too Anyone who wants to tell their "story" like Anastar and me, feel free.
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| Myko | May 3 2011, 09:50 PM Post #4 |
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Hopeless Romantic
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Well, my story's a little different. XD When I first saw the game, my brother was playing it. He always used Aerith in his party, so the first time I saw her or Tifa was their portraits for party picking. He always chose Aerith, but when I looked between the two I thought Tifa was prettier. It was probably the darker hair, since Aerith looks a little blonde. At least, to me she did, and I wasn't a very big blonde supporter.... ^^; Then the next time I saw FFVII was when my friend was playing it. She always used Tifa and when I asked she showed me Aerith's death and was making fun of it. Since I was new, I took her word for it that Tifa was the love interest. Then I started playing it for myself. I immediately took a liking to Aerith since I had never seen her in game play or in battle. She became my favorite, despite my friends who took an obvious shine to Tifa because she stays alive. This was all when I was 7, I believe. I tried to be nice to both girls, but then the date scene immediately went to Aerith, so that kinda proved it to me. Then with her death I was really sad and thought I'd never see her again. Ah, imagine my delight when I saw Aerith's hand reach for Cloud. That sealed the deal for me. |
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| Zeryll | May 4 2011, 12:27 PM Post #5 |
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T A N G L E D
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I've played FF7 many times during the years, and once (it was like 3 years ago, I believe) I wanted to try and play it the "CloTi" way, just trying to comprehend them (FAILED). I found it interesting that you have to be quite nice to Tifa and very rude to Aeris. Honestly, I don't believe Cloud would really have said those things. For example, this case..: Aeris: "Is Tifa...a girl? A girl...friend?" (I can't remember if it goes exactly like this...DX) Cloud: ("No way!") or "Yeah, that's right." In my case, it would always have been the upper one, but that time, I forced myself to pick the lower. But still it didn't feel right at all, I can't bring myself to see Cloud lying to Aeris just like that
It is interesting how your opinion can change when you try something by yourself Of course, I can totally see why you thought Tifa being the love interest. It's no wonder if you took your friend's/brother's/etc. word on something you're new with. But I'm glad you tried the game by yourself But I think most of the CloTis (also those who haven't played the game) favor Tifa only because she's alive. At least, that is the main reason in FFFin (Final Fantasy Finland) forums why some of the people think Cloud would pick Tifa, along with "they were sooo close childhood friends/new each other since their childhood". <_<
I was sad, too And I can totally imagine it, since I was practically jumping up and down
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| Anastar | May 4 2011, 04:58 PM Post #6 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Out of curiosity, Zeryll, has your perspective changed in any way over the years? I mean, as a four year old, you thought Cloud loved Aerith because of the way he treated her. Do you still see it the same way, or are there other things now that make you think Cloud loves Aerith?
Yeah, I've played it the "Cloti way", too. It never changed my mind, though. I still didn't think Cloud showed any romantic interest in Tifa. ![]()
I just don't get how being "the only girl left" means that someone's going to fall in love with you. Seriously, say some guy was shipwrecked on an island with two girls, and one of the girls is his girlfriend/lover. His girlfriend dies. Does that automatically mean he's going to fall in love with the other girl who lives? Love doesn't work that way. Then you have games like FFX and FFX-2, where Yuna continues loving Tidus even though he's "dead". So I think SE has made it clear that it's totally possible for someone to continue loving another person after they die. If SE thought it was possible in FFX and X-2, then SE also thought it was possible in FFVII.
Oh, I hate that argument! The game makes it *clear* that they were NOT close friends as children, yet Cloti's just ignore that. SE has even clarified in the Ultimania's that they weren't close, but Cloti's just deny it. <_<
I cried my eyes out the first time I saw Aerith die. But it never made me think that Cloud would fall for Tifa, like too many people assume. |
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| Zeryll | May 4 2011, 06:20 PM Post #7 |
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Ahem, this was hard, Anastar I think that I kind of grew up with the thought of Cloud loving only Aeris (in that way, that is), so thinking of CloTi is...well, absurd. When I learned the dialogue and all, I saw that Cloud also expressed verbally his, um, feelings. I mean, when Aeris was captured, he was all like, "I have to save her!" and constantly reminded Aeris, "But I'm your bodyguard, right?". And then, of course, the Cosmo Canyon campfire moment. And after Aeris' death I thought he spoke only fondly about her. But let's face it: Cloud is not good with words at all. He's more a man who acts than speaks. I believe Nomura has said that too?Also, Aeris was the only one who made Cloud laugh and cry (IMO, he didn't cry when Zack died, but I could be wrong :P). So, I still think that we can see his feelings through the way he treated her, but the dialogue also supported them. Also, AC was so Cleris to me.Never saw any CloTi in it. I wasn't surprised at all about the fact Cloud lived in Aeris' church, but that surprised me when I read CloTis saying he lived with Tifa in Seventh Heaven During AC, that is. I was like, "WTH? Marlene asked if Cloud lived in the church and Tifa replied that she guessed he did." And in AC, Aeris was in Cloud's mind almost all the time.Gah, sorry if this makes zero sense DX I'm just messing around with my thoughts... What I'm trying to say is that all the other facts/hints/whatever have only deepened my opinion that Cloud loves Aeris, but I really value my first viewpoint (of how he treated her). As someone wise has said: "Some things don't need words."
Couldn't agree more. It is absolutely ridiculous claim, to love someone just because s/he's the only one there. Besides, who has said Cloud wants to "move on"? Maybe he's happy with the fact Aeris will always be with him? At least, that's how I saw it in Calling. Furthermore, Cloud and Tifa's "relationship" was proven to be quite a disaster in Case of Tifa. So, love can't be forced, even if CloTis want so. :rolleyes:
Makes me wonder if they have ever even played FF7 in the first place <_< If they had, how could they have missed the obvious fact so easily? Just when does Cloud and Tifa seem to be "very close childhood friends" during the flashbacks of what really happened? Oh, and I never saw that in Cloud's "twisted memory" (that is actually Zack's) either. |
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| Darkeliel | May 4 2011, 06:41 PM Post #8 |
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Member
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As for me, I first so ff7 in england, my sister was playing. Of course I'm french and I was seven so I didn't understand any words. But I remember one thing for sure, my sister opened the menu, her team was Cloud (of course) Aerith and Tifa. I immediatly saw Aerith and Aerith alone, I don't know why even now, but it was a big crush. It was obvious for me that Aerith was Cloud's girlfriend, and I didn't pay attention to Tifa's behavior. I remember Aerith's death it was awfull for me, because I loved so much this girl in pink, and I didn't understand what happened, why she had to die, or why Sephiroth was saying and my sister never explained it to me. It was so unfair for me. I cried a lot. And then I returned to France, and I just could'nt stop talking about FF7 and Aerith ! When my sister came back, she bought the game in french, I remember when she started play again, she named Tifa just like me, :angry: of course I liked Tifa but I prefered Aerith ! So she beat the game, and I remember the last scene, I was happy to see Aerith's hand but what I remember the most was the scene where Cloud saved Tifa and then she stay into his arm ! I was embarrassed because Tifa had my name (and of course because I was in love with cloud ). But, for me it was clear that Tifa was in love with Cloud, but he was in love with Aerith. When I played the game, I had the same impression, Cloud and Aerith was lover, and Tifa... was... Tifa XD |
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| Zeryll | May 4 2011, 08:34 PM Post #9 |
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T A N G L E D
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Okay, now that (finally) I re-read my post, I noticed this gave wrong information for you guys. What I meant was that I wasn't aware of the possibility that Cloud would be in love Tifa until then. Geez, sorry about that I had noticed earlier that Tifa was in love with Cloud, though the first impression about her to me was that she was Cloud's sister/blaablaablaa. *edits the first post*
I didn't understand it either. When I asked, my brothers just told me Sephy was a very evil man, and that I would understand when I am older. I guess they didn't want to upset me...
Aww, that's cute What is FF7 like in your native language? I'm glad it's not in Finnish; I thought the AC sub was weird enough since I'm used to FFs in English
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| Darkeliel | May 4 2011, 09:12 PM Post #10 |
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Member
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IT'S AWFUL !!!!!!! The traduction is sooooo bad, worse than the english one. For example, some line are not tanslated... Or worse, when it's translate, it's look like : (When you get caught by the shinra when you rescue Aerith) "vous allez tous vous faire prendre vous aussi?" I don't even know how to translate it XD google traduction tells : You will all make you too, I would rather say : "You're all gonna be taken you too?" And the original english script is : You all got caught, too? In French "vous allez tous vous faire prendre" as a real sexual connotation O.O I mean what is the Highwind scene in front of Cloud's saying "oh god you're all gonna having sex too?" Awful I said ! XD |
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| Beatrix | May 5 2011, 07:37 AM Post #11 |
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Advanced Member
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Oh yeah, FF7's french translation is truly awful. It's "This guy are sick" multiplied by 10 of epic fail proportion (I may not remember well but... was this line not translated either ? That would be... an hilarious and monstruous english error in a french script... ah ah).The thing is... FF7's english translation was awful. But our translators got pretty lazy and instead of translating the japanese script into french, they made 2 students (half)translate the flawed ENGLISH translation into french instead. No wonder it was a disaster. |
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| Zeryll | May 5 2011, 10:17 AM Post #12 |
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Whoo boy, that sounds pretty messed up
I know the English version is not the best translation, but I have to be satisfied with it because I don't understand Japanese
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| Anastar | May 6 2011, 12:51 AM Post #13 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Zeryll
Yes, SE said something about Cloud talking with his eyes instead of by talking. I don't remember where that was said, though. But I completely agree that Cloud does hint at his fondness/love for Aerith in several places during the game by his words as well as his actions. The examples you gave are very good, but there's also things like Cloud talking about meeting Aerith in the Promised Land after rescuing Tifa at the end of the game. He doesn't even ask Tifa if she's alright or anything - instead, he starts talking about meeting Aerith. To me, that says that Aerith's the only one he's thinking of.
Again, I agree. For example, when he started to run after her in the Sleeping Forest as she left for the Forgotten City. To me, that made it obvious that he wanted to be with her and didn't want to be separated from her.
Tell the truth, I thought AC/ACC canonized Clerith when I first saw it. I thought that would be obvious to anyone who watched it, and I was shocked when I started hearing the Cloti arguments against it.
Well, Case of Tifa showed that Cloud was living in the same house as Tifa until shortly before AC/ACC. Cloti's want to think they were also sleeping in the same bed, but there's plenty to contradict their ideas. Cloti's also seem to forget that Tifa was living with Barret in the Seventh Heaven in Midgar, but they weren't sleeping together.
Same with me. I've yet to see anything that would make me believe that Cloud loves Tifa romantically, or that Cloud didn't love Aerith romantically. If anything, AC/ACC just strengthened my belief in Clerith as the intended couple of the game.
Exactly. Aerith being dead proves nothing about who Cloud loves, IMO. It doesn't mean he'll move on, and it doesn't mean that he now loves Tifa. Those are just absurd ideas.
I couldn't agree moire. To me, Case of Tifa shows how Cloti will never work out.
I agree. I thought it was obvious in the game that Cloud and Tifa were never close as children. If anything, they hardly knew one another. They knew who each other were, and that's about it. Darkeliel and Beatrix I'd never heard how awful the French translation is before this! :o
I hardly know any French, but even I can tell that makes absolutely no sense.
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| Zeryll | May 6 2011, 03:45 PM Post #14 |
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I believe it was in the Distance too, but can't be sure
Agreed. And he says "I think that I can meet(/find) her there..." While Tifa says "Yeah, let's go meet her", Cloud only talks about himself. (But we all know that, I just wanted to highlight it :P)
Yeah, and Cloud didn't even know Aeris was in danger, so there was really no other reason for him.
Same thing. Just when you could see this über-romantic scene with Cloud and Tifa, huh? :rolleyes:
Makes you want to laugh, doesn't it Or cry, I don't know. But the fact is, she slept with Marlene. If Cloud lives under Tifa's roof, that doesn't make them lovers. Silly people...
And to me, it also showed how unhealthy a "relationship" could be... I mean, all the hiding, problems with communication, Cloud&the kids leaving Tifa out their conversations, blaablaablaa... And CloTis find that romantic?! To me, it almost seemed like Cloud was cheating Tifa (which he, of course, wasn't because they never had a relationship in the first place) After all, he did visit Aeris' church and called it "his place"
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| Anastar | May 7 2011, 08:13 PM Post #15 |
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To touch the light I see in your eyes...
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Took me awhile, but I found it! :lol: Here it is: When animating Cloud’s expressions, we thought he should speak with his eyes instead of his mouth most of the time. Unlike more expressive characters such as Reno, Cloud will usually keep a stiff upper lip. ~Nojima, Reunion Files
You're absolutely right. He blatantly says "I" and doesn't invite Tifa along. She's the one who invites herself. There was a very similar scene in the Forgotten City where Cloud told Aerith that he would finish what she started himself, and Tifa said, "You mean we!" LOL
Yeah, and SE shows a bed in Cloud's room during AC/ACC. Then there's the place in CoT where Tifa tells Cloud to go drink in his room. Seems pretty obvious to me that there's nothing romantic or sexual going on between them. Besides, if SE wanted us to think there was something romantic or sexual going on between Cloud and Tifa, it would have been VERY easy for SE to show them kissing in AC/ACC. SE showed Squall and Rinoa kissing, and SE showed Tidus and Yuna kissing. Seems like an easy way for SE to end the LTD, if they wanted to - but they didn't.
I completely agree. Nojima even said so in an interview about Case of Tifa: "Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs). ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix website He says the story is based on the premise that things won't go well between Cloud and Tifa, and that problems would exist even without Geostigma and Sephiroth. Then he goes on to say that the children may be able to help them work it out after AC/ACC, but he sure doesn't sound very certaih of it. Then he says that things would've gone better with Aerith. So, to me, Nojima's just confirming that there's little or no chance for Cloti to ever happen. |
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But definitely not a love interest. To me it just looked like very sisterly behavior. It was a little shock to me when I found out about the LT at the time I first began reading fanfiction/some forums/etc. (I believe it was something like 8 or 7 years ago...). It never had even crossed my mind! When I read forums where CloTis were discussing, I was like, "I can't believe what I'm reading..."
I admit I was a bit ashamed I wasn't aware of the LT(D) until then, that Cloud could possibly be in love with Tifa



You certainly wouldn't have any bias toward one couple or another at that age - unless your brothers had talked about who Cloud loved with you or something.
They're all Cleris-supporters.
That is the way I saw it, too.
And I can totally imagine it, since I was practically jumping up and down 
The game makes it *clear* that they were NOT close friends as children, yet Cloti's just ignore that. SE has even clarified in the Ultimania's that they weren't close, but Cloti's just deny it. <_<
During AC, that is. I was like, "WTH? Marlene asked if Cloud lived in the church and Tifa replied that she guessed he did." And in AC, Aeris was in Cloud's mind almost all the time.
). But, for me it was clear that Tifa was in love with Cloud, but he was in love with Aerith.
Oh yeah, FF7's french translation is truly awful. It's "This guy are sick" multiplied by 10 of epic fail proportion (I may not remember well but... was this line not translated either ? That would be... an hilarious and monstruous english error in a french script... ah ah).
12:52 AM Jul 11